Anyone else here dislike Disney films besides me? (1 Viewer)

[Morgan Jolley]

First off, I'm not some stupid little kid who needs every movie to have explosions and flashy sfx. I understand the deeper meanings of film and am able to interpret them. With that said...

I find that Disney films are generally boring. Not slow, but boring. I could care less about a lot of the action, the characters wear their emotions on their sleeves, and I can find little to no motivation that is not shown outright in the movie. In anime, characters will often have many reasons for doing something, and some reasons could be totally psychological. This makes the character more realistic, and even if I don't connect with them, the fact that they seem real makes me enjoy the experience more.

Visually, Disney can kick any anime's ass any time, any day. But, while Disney might look the best, I find that some of the more original and complex drawings are in anime films. The characters are often uninspired and created with little thought. In anime, the characters generally have big eyes and mouths, but there is actually more to it than that. Little children, teenagers, and women generally have the big eyes. Adult men have individual faces of their own, and in some anime, old people have a different face. Granted, its not much variety, but if the characters are represented as more realistic through their actions, words, and interaction with others, then if they look totally original or not doesn't matter because you can identify them as individuals beyond just looks.

In the storyline department, not once have I seen a good Disney movie where they did not rip the basic story from something else. They didn't copy the story from Pocahontas or Tarzan exactly, but they did copy the basic ideas and then created some filler around it. A lot of the themes in the stories are also not made by them originally, they are already there from the person who wrote the original story or were put in the movie by Disney. Also, the themes are quite obvious to the viewers without putting thought into the movie, which means you need less comprehension to find them. Tarzan's theme was most obviously about the importance of family, and had they jammed it down my throat any less, maybe I would think that Disney acknowledged the existance of my intelligence.

The movies are also more often than not historically inaccurate on a grand scale. Ok, so Tokyo didn't blow up in the late 80s (in Akira it does) but at least they didn't say that Pocahontas was an adult woman and screw up the historical truth.

If you enjoy their movies, good for you. I enjoy anime, but many people don't. Its all in opinion and experience. I enjoy anime that many people haven't seen, but their opinions are most often (not always) based on really bad anime. The same could be said for someone who doesn't like Disney movies (though for me, it isn't true).

Overall, its just not for me. I prefer something else, which is more commonly found in anime.

Rob-

Disney wins in the visual production values part hands-down. I never said they didn't. I meant they were unoriginal in that they don't make up their own stories, and if they do, it ends up generally sucking.

If you want to see what I consider to be one of the best anime movies/series, look at Neon Genesis Evangelion. The movies rely on the series a lot, but the detail in the storyline far outweighs any detail Disney has put into the visuals of their films. The series starts out like a regular mecha based action series, but turns into a story about religion, emotions, friendship, love, and everything else. The designs of the Evangelion (the robots) is amazing, the story is insanely detailed, the characters' motivation goes beyond "he killed my father, I must get revenge" type stuff, and the overall quality of the series is not measured by the budget or the visuals, but by the story that it is based on (which is, of course, the most important part of a good movie).

 

[TheLongshot]

Mind you, many of the ideas presented in these anime films are intruiging, but in the end, I find most anime to be cold, flat, and pedantic, and way too interested in it's plot device ideas than it's characters.

Point taken, tho I can say that about a lot of live-action films, especially action films.

I'm not suprised you felt that way about PM, because it isn't about "characters" as much as "groups", with basically individuals representing these groups.

Course, some of what you watched is also crap. MD Geist is considered one of the biggest pieces of crap made. I didn't particularly think Roujin Z or Demon City: Shingoku all that great either. Stuff like Tenchi are pretty much for fans of the TV series and don't easily stand alone, since the character development was there.

Some that may fit your tastes a little better:

Grave Of The Fireflies: One of the most emotionally gutwrenching films I've ever seen. About two kids trying to survive in war-torn Japan during WWII. I'll probably never watch it again, but it was worth seeing.

Catnapped!: For those who don't like the style of most anime, this is quite different. About two kids who get kidnapped by cats and brought to their world to save them from the kids' dog. Definitly seems to have been influenced a little bit by Yellow Submarine. Lightweight, but pretty good.

Lupin III - The Castle of Cagliostro: This is also based on a TV series, but there is enough character development for it to stand alone. It was the first film directed by Miyazaki and has a lot of heart.

I'd recommend others, but most of them aren't available on this shore. If you want better character development, I'd go with TV series rather than movies. Most are better than what is shown on TV in the US.

The problem I have with a lot of recent Disney at least is the same damn formula in every film. We gotta have songs and a funny sidekick in every film, don't we? Tarzan was better on that point but still fell into it a little bit.

The good thing is, I like some of the upcoming projects coming from Disney. Lilo And Stitch looks like a riot and Treasure Planet looks like it has potential (Just as long as it is better than Atlantis.)

The problem I have with Disney, and I understand the reasons why, is that the primary aim is for the kiddies. When Disney is at their best, it translates to all ages, but the aim is still at the kiddies. That's fine, but I do want something that is a little more chalenging to the brain from my movies. Most american animation doesn't do this. It is still viewed as a kiddie medium, when it could be more than that. That's why I like a lot of Anime.

Jason

 

[Terrell]

In the storyline department, not once have I seen a good Disney movie where they did not rip the basic story from something else. They didn't copy the story from Pocahontas or Tarzan exactly, but they did copy the basic ideas and then created some filler around it.

Morgan, I don't think that's a valid criticism. That's what they do. Put their take on a previous fairy tale. A lot of other studios have done this. Is a Frankenstein film immediately invalid becuase the studio didn't create it? Is Dracula immediately invalid? What about Spiderman, or Superman? Or how about this one, Lord of the Rings? Do you not like any of these films because they weren't original stories? What about A Beautiful Mind? I can go on and on.

These filmmakers didn't originally create those stories Morgan. If you're gonna criticize Disney because they made animated films based on fairy tales or books, you might as well do the same to a lot of studios. I don't think that's valid, that they used a piece of work that they didn't create. Secondly, Disney has created works of their own. Not every single film is an interpretation of another. Some of it is their own. And a number of them are very good.

I'm not arguing that you have to like Disney. Only that some of your criticisms of them don't make much sense to me. If you're looking for completely original stories, and invalidate films interpreted or made from other works, then you're gonna miss a ton of great stuff.

As for the quality of animation, and even you agree that Disney is incredible, animation is half the deal. Animation, and the quality of it, matters greatly Morgan.

 

[rob kilbride]

Well, if you guys read my earlier posts again, I only said that anime couldn't touch Disney in terms of visual quality of the animation, a point which it seems both of you have conceded. I guess its a matter of what your looking for. For me the draw of animations is its visual and sonic splendor. Of course I prefer a plot I can get into but to me it is a secondary matter. For complex plots I prefer live action films. I think most people would have the same preferences that I do in these matters. Most people probably don't expect the Usual Suspects when they go to a Disney flick. Right now I'm literally hundreds of cd's behind in my listening since I've discovered classical and so much of it is very reasonably priced. I've gone nuts in many a Naxos section or bargain bin. So I pick and choose the movies I watch much more selectively than I pick my music. So I doubt I'll be rushing out to see any anime any time soon since you guys seem to agree they don't visually dazzle the way Disney does. But, if someone whose opinion I respect(out of people I know personally, no offense intended) strongly recommends something I will check it out. But I don't see it ever replacing Disney as the largest animation section in my collection.

 

[TomJD]

Nothing can compare to some of the fasntastic animation of some of the Disney classics such as Pinocchio,Snow White etc...My beef with Disney is they are altering/editing some of their classics to be politically correct with the times.Who are the folks at Disney to decide whats proper or improper?

 

[Trace Downing]

Thanks for the recommendations Jason. I'll check them out.

And for the record, all of those Animes that I've seen have either been enthusiastically recommended to me by anime fans, or as in the case of Roujin Z and Totorro, highly recommended by Siskel & Ebert. I also happen to like Roujin Z. MDGeist, VampHuntD, Tenchi & DemonCityS are all absolute crap, and I was steered to them by anime fans.

My point about Princess Mononoke is still there. Yes, the big story is about divergent groups, with antagonistic agendas, but the individuals representing the groups were failures in humanizing what they represent. I think it's a good story, but far from perfect.

I do take exeption that Disney's animation is "aimed at kiddies". Most of the people on this thread defending Disney's style (of storymaking, as well as animation quality) are adults, many of us (including me) have no kids ourselves. That's why it's called "Family Entertainment". Kiddies, is a uppity, biased term that doesn't need to be used to get your point across.

Anime, on the other hand can be put into the "Teenybopper" categories, since it's about blood, big robots, cool toys, and big hooters. Witness Morgan's justification for liking it (He's 16 years old BTW)...

I find that Disney films are generally boring. Not slow, but boring. I could care less about a lot of the action, the characters wear

their emotions on their sleeves, and I can find little to no motivation that is not shown outright in the movie. In anime, characters

will often have many reasons for doing something, and some reasons could be totally psychological. This makes the character

more realistic, and even if I don't connect with them, the fact that they seem real makes me enjoy the experience more.

Utter Hogwash! Realism is the LAST thing anime aspires to be. The cyborg with the big boobs in Ghost In The Shell, is no more realistic than Pokahontas.

I don't hate anime, I actually like some of it. But, I can like it, and don't have to choose between it and Disney, or Dreamworks, for that matter.

 

[Morgan Jolley]

When I say that I look for realism, I don't mean things like robots or aliens, but human emotion. I can accept that there are giant robots piloted by people who save the planet, but only if I can accept that the pilots are real humans, so I need to be convinced. Most anime is able to do that, most Disney animation is not.

Disney has the ability to make outstanding looking animation down pat. They can write pretty good stuff (even if it is based on something else). Now all they need to do is write something that is not for kids. If they made a movie that was aimed at a more mature audience and tried to have more depth to the characters, complexity to the storyline, and had absolutely no songs, I would be very interested. If they gave it the same support as their annual spring/summer release, I would expect it to be good. But until then, I'll have to deal with movies that represent the exact opposite of what I look for in movies, animated or live action.

About movies based on other works (many Disney, Lord of the Rings, etc.) I have nothing wrong with someone doing an update of a movie, a film version of a book, or anything like that, but when they do it so many times and its so similar each time to the previous attempt, it starts to bug me. Disney takes a story, throws in an animal or some character that doesn't need to talk much to be funny, some sort of love interest, some bad guy, and then throws in some songs to make a movie. And if there is no love interest or bad guy, they will even go so far as to make them up just because they need to be there! Granted, songs have sort of faded out and they have started to do more original works, but the same exact formula is used, so its like seeing a remake of the same movie each time I see a new Disney movie.

 

[Trace Downing]

Sorry Morgan, not buying it.

Human emotion is very rare in the Anime that I've seen. As I said, only Kikki's Delivery Service provided me with any connection to the characters. Anime is much more interested in giant robots, toys, and blood.

I will concede that Disney uses a formula for their animated fare, but aimed at kids is a VERY relative term. It's aimed at families. Anime is at least marketed to teens and comic collectors in The U.S. The cartoons themselves are based on Japanese comic books. I don't agree that those are the only demographics that enjoy them. I find them intriguing, I just can't live on a steady diet of them. Sometimes I just want the comfortable familiarity of what Disney offers, like being visited by an old friend.

 

[Morgan Jolley]

Anime is not just a fan type thing. A bunch of companies make animated shows and movies in America, and its the same thing in Japan. There are small shows that are made for little kids, bigger shows that are supposed to be for families (like Simpsons type stuff), shows aimed at teens, and pretty much every demographic that there is a show for in America.

With that said, maybe the only anime you have seen or heard of is aimed at teens, but thats not the case.

Disney movies make characters likable, which means that you don't actually feel a real connection to them. The best example of making an emotional connection with a character from any Disney related film was in Toy Story 2 with Jessie's memory sequence. You understand why she acts the way she does, you get to know her history, and you also get to like her. Other than that, I could care less what happens to anyone in Disney films.

In anime, its different. The characters act more realistically, not heroically, and end up making the whole production better. I could care less about flashy effects, big explosions, or anything else that would be considered actiony (in Disney or anime) so long as the characters are real. In Evangelion, and some other anime shows/movies, the characters are real because of how they act. They don't run out to save someone in a dire situation because its heroic, they do it because of something else, or they might not even do it at all. Yes, there's blood, robots, and the like, but at least they don't cover everything up and make it look like the world is all happy. Disney movies are fairly nonviolent, and when they are violent, its not realistic.

Overall, Disney sugarcoats the stories and removes all sense of realism just to make them appealing to younger audiences. Just because adults enjoy them doesn't mean they weren't meant for kids. There are adults who watch cartoon shows on Cartoon Network (not including Adult Swim), Nickelodeon, and other morning stuff because they enjoy them, even though a lot were aimed at kids.

 

[Trace Downing]

ALLRIGHT! MORGAN!!!
The jig is up! I just saw over in software that you took your Dad to see Atlants for his birthday. Who are you trying to kid?
I might have been born at night, but it wasn't last night.
As for the Anime that I've seen...look up a few posts. with the exception of Gattai-Ga, Speed Racer, and Star Blazers when I was a kid...and Final Fantasy last summer (it has a more spiritual connection to anime than it does to American films)...that's pretty much it.

 

[Morgan Jolley]

Thats not the first time I paid for a Disney movie for his birthday. But nonetheless, I still didn't enjoy the movie. He even said that the movie could have been better, and he loves Disney!

So while I did pay (as a birthday present) to see the movie, that doesn't mean I like Disney movies.

 

[Terrell]

I've given up this argument, but Morgan, Atlantis is a total departure for Disney. They don't sugarcoat that film all that much, and it's not their typical musical. And Atlantis is heavily influenced from anime. Just look at the styling. So this film should have addressed some of your criticisms of their cookie cutter movies, that are glossed over and non-violent.

 

[Mikey Ber]

Warner Bros. rule. Disney is just a large corp. not interested in the art but in the profit. Chuck Jones and gang work out of the termite ter. and made great cartunes

 

[Terrell]

Warner Bros. doesn't rule when it comes to feature length animation. But they rule at Looney Tunes.

 

[Ken_McAlinden]

Warner Bros. rule. Disney is just a large corp. not interested in the art but in the profit. Chuck Jones and gang work out of the termite ter. and made great cartunes

Welcome to the 21st century. Take a look around. If you are comparing modern Disney to 1940s-1950s WB, then why use the present tense. If you are comparing classic WB to classic Disney, than WB was the bigger corporation. If you are comparing their modern incarnations, then AOL-Time Warner is hardly a feisty independent.

I think Disney made the best shorts in the 30s and were quite good up until WW2. The Termite terrace guys hit their stride in the early 40s, hiccupped a little when Avery and then Clampett left, and rebounded phenomenally in the late 40s through the 50s. I like the Avery stuff at MGM a whole lot, too.

WB was not too successful in the realm of animated features, though.

Regards,

 

[Morgan Jolley]

Atlantis was better than some other Disney movies in some respects, but overall, it just wasn't that good. You can make a movie that fits my styles, but if it sucks, it sucks.

 

[Terrell]

Hmm, I certainly didn't think Atlantis sucked. Oh well.

 

[Trace Downing]

It seems that it doesn't matter what we think, Terrell. If Morgan says it sucks, well then, who are we to question that? All this time, I thought it was fairly decent. I'm sure glad Morgan was was here to lead me onto the right path.:rolleyes

 

[Morgan Jolley]

I'm not saying my opinion is definitive, but Atlantis just seemed flat. Its like someone had a good idea, then a bunch of people made it dull. I dunno.

If you like it, good for you. I, for one, did not.

My dad and I often talk about anime versus american animation (mainly Disney) and one time we were talking about Atlantis. I pointed out that the big eyes of some characters was a lot like anime and that Jane's face from Tarzan was a very anime looking face (the way her nose looks, her eyes). He said that it was just Disney's style and had nothing to do with anime at all. Then he said that the character designs were supposed to look like the voice actors, but I never noticed Minnie Driver having ultra huge eyes or a little upturned nose...

And about Atlantis, I thought the style with the blocky fingers was weird.

 

[Edwin-S]

I always find it pretty humorous when I read comments stating that Animated films are too "kiddie", followed by demands that they should try to be more "mature". If animated films in North America are too "kiddie" don't blame Disney, blame the average North American audience. The fact of the matter is that so-called "mature" animated films always bomb in North America. North American audiences do not want to watch "mature" animation because they are spoiled by high production value "live action" films. Just a small list:

1) Final Fantasy = BOMB

2) Atlantis = a BOMB by Disney's standards of return on investment

3) The Plague Dogs - probably one of the most "mature" animated films made .....a complete bomb, in fact, I would bet dollars to donuts that hardly anyone has even heard of this film

4) Titan A.E. = not the most mature but an attempt at telling an action adventure story minus songs and funny sidekicks.....BOMB

5) The Black Cauldron = Disney's early attempt at trying to make a more "mature" style of animated film......BOMB

6) The Iron Giant - a film with interesting themes regarding the "Red Menace" paranoia that gripped America in the fifties.....BOMB.

7) Rock and Rule - an attempt to make an animated film aimed at an older teen audience.....BOMB

8) Princess Mononoke - essentially.....BOMB

Then you look at what has been a hit:

1) The Little Mermaid - a musical = HIT

2) Aladdin - a musical comedy = HIT

3) Toy Story - comedy = HIT

4) Toy Story 2 - comedy = HIT

5) The Lion King - Musical/comedy/drama - which owes more to Shakespeare's "Hamlet" than "Kimba" = HIT

6) Shrek - comedy = HIT

7) Monster's Inc. - comedy = HIT

8) Beauty and The Beast - musical/comedy/drama = HIT

......Need I go on.

Don't go blaming Disney for alleged formulaic animation. They and other studios give people what they want. Studios are in business to make money. No matter how much they may spew about making great "art"...at the end of the day it comes down to how much "Return on Investment" they get for the risk they took. Any studio executive would take one look at how well "serious" animated films do at the box office and immediately "greenlight" the next animated comedy/musical.