A former SACD fan comes over to DVD-Audio (1 Viewer)

[Darryl]

I both love and hate this forum. Unfortunately, it's mostly hate. This thread is a perfect example of why. I like to hear about good recordings. I like to hear insights from industry insiders. But everything turns into a shoving match, or it just starts that way.

Take the title of this thread. "Former" SACD fan? Sounds to me like he still considers SACD to be on a par with DVD-A. He's just had the pleasure of hearing the potential of DVD-A at its best. But of course, everything has to presented with at least a little spin here.

And I hate how you are forced to justify every little comment. How many times has someone had to write a paragraph explaining why you shouldn't take offense to a sentence in a prior post? Or essentially give out your resume so that everyone else knows you are qualified to express an opinion? Or point out smilies???? Come on!

It doesn't take long for someone to get the impression that only industry professionals interested in bashing are welcome to post in threads with any real content. Sure, I can still post in threads about Shania's hairdo, but even there I might have to write a discourse to explain my opinions.

You're driving people like me away!

Anybody know of a friendlier HT forum?

 

[John Kotches]

Lee,

Rather than making you dig, the UIDs are editorgary and perry. The domain name is painfully obvious.

I wish I had the $$$ to throw at the 800/861 combo, but with an entry price of ~$35K it is not the most fiscally responsible purchase I can make at the moment.

The 568.2MM (Review in April issue if publication schedule holds) and 598 player (Review to be determined) are the best I've heard short of the 8xx setups. I have heard Kevin Halverson's (Muse Electronics) digital solution which is really good, and a serious rival to the 5xx series sonically. I wouldn't give up either Trifield or Ambisonics capability though, and I'd have to if I went with the Muse solution.

The transient arguments are for a different discussion on technical aspects....

Regards,

 

[Phil A]

John, thanks for the thoughts on "Soular Energy." I will eventually pick-up one or both. My only original reference to the Marantz 8260 was that it did not have level controls for the channels to use with a multi-channel set-up on its own and just wanted to point to the fact that it too was a good performer like the DVD-A player used. I did not mean to imply that the test was biased to the DVD-A player as obviously the software used was not available on SACD. I used the word "decent" to refer to the 8260 and did not at all say anything about the DVD-A player at all and assumed most knew it was in the same ballpark on price points. Jim and Darryl, I totally agree with your posts. Except for controlled test conditions in a studio, I really can't see any current players out there that with even the same title of software (e.g. mastering, etc.) that could produce a valid scientific result. Being that we live in a world where certain studios push certain formats, the general public and market conditions (e.g. pricing) will decide which if any 2 formats will make it long-term or move beyond a niche format. My philosophy is very simple, I don't control who releases what on a particular format and I will buy and enjoy what music I like. I have no doubt that what an audio nut like myself buys or have preferences for may more than likely not be the same as the mass market public. I noted my preferences in the review I did of "Music From Big Pink." Also, using a medium that this to communicate vs. doing it in person can lead to poor wording and misinterpretation. A case in point is what Darryl and I noted about the title and while John and I probably agree pretty much on the 2 players used, he read my silence about the DVD-A player as something else. We can all try to make this a better place.

 

[Jim_C]

>>Jim and Darryl, I totally agree with your posts. Except for controlled test conditions in a studio, I really can't see any current players out there that with even the same title of...

 

[Jagan Seshadri]

Darryl,
I have left a private message for you.

-JNS

 

[Lee Scoggins]

The transient arguments are for a different discussion on technical aspects

Why not discuss them though as Mark has brought up the subject? 192 favors DVDA.

The big problem is the lack of software on 192k but maybe that will get better...I just wish we had more AIX quality releases. We get volume from some Silverline but the sonics are crap.

 

[Craig_Kg]

On most (virtually all) of the inexpensive to moderate Hi-Res players I've stuck in my system (usually someone has usually brought it over), the CD playback was preferred when comparing 2-channel recordings. With an expensive DAC and transport it is not astonishing.

Phil A, this is off topic but could you please qualify your statement by telling us what DAC (& transport) you use. I'm not stirring, I just want to maximise the potential of my CD library (which will remain the largest portion of my music collection in the near future).

 

[John Kotches]

Lee,

You need to refresh your pricing data.

Meridian 568.2MM $7745 (Digital in for DVD-A)
Meridian 598DP $5500 (4 configs available in US, this is the most expensive config)

I add these up, and I come up with rouhgly $13K. Perhaps mathematics has changed recently?

If you want / need to add in the 562v3 for additional inputs or video switching then you are pushing the $16K price point, which is still 20% under the price point you mentioned, at full retail.

The Muse combo I mentioned will be selling for roughly the same price as the Meridian setup. Their estimate was in the $13-15K price depending on configuration of the processor.

A comparable config in the 800 series is well past $30K.

There's no question that even the 500 series solution from Meridian is expensive, but perhaps you could give accurate information on pricing in the future.

Regards,

 

[Lee Scoggins]

but perhaps you could give accurate information on pricing in the future

This was an honest mistake; there is no reason to get uptight about it. Its not like Meridian has a lot of dealers I can check with.

 

[Mark_Waldrep]

Lee,

You and John can butt heads as much as you like, but I can't let you slide in a comment about the long term viability of the DVD-Audio format.

the lack of solidity in the DVDA format in terms of longevity.

There is no chance that DVD-Audio is going to somehow go away...all of the hardware manufacturers (except Sony/Philips) are making players. The high-end guys are also getting on board....Goldmund and Krell among others. At a recent visit to my local Good Guys store 75% of the available machines for sale have the ability to play DVD-Audio discs...not to mention the 65 million DVD-Video players that can handle the compatible tracks on DVD-Audio titles.

The major labels are also ramping up to produce DVD-Audio titles...I've even heard that Sony Music has already produced DVD-Audio software.

It's time to admit that both SACD and DVD-Audio formats are here to stay...the introduction of Super Hybrid players bodes well for everyone.

I've even heard of an effort to make hybrid discs that have SACD on one side and DVD-Audio on the other side of the same disc.

 

[John Kotches]

Lee,

$13K is for a delivered solution, not for a source. There are a number of processors in the 8K range, including the Krell I just reviewed.

The solution covers DVD-Video, CD and DVD-Audio (second only to the 800/861). A Krell solution can't be delivered, as they don't have the DVD-Audio player released... yet. The Krell Processor + DVD player is (coincidentally) US$16K, the same cost as the Meridian 568/598/562v3, but lacks DVD-Audio Capability (analog or digital).

A comparably configured (to the Meridian 568.2MM) Theta CasaBlanca-2 is roughly $10K, and lacks digital input capability for DVD-Audio. Throw in the extreme DACs and you're hitting the $18K price point, which is in the ball park of Meridian 861 pricing, but still lacks digital input capability for DVD-A.

So, when you look at some of the comparable products, the pricing isn't out of line.

I've never said that these solutions are cheap, they aren't. They're quite expensive, and more than the vast majority of people have in their entire HT. One has to decide for themself whether the purchase is justifiable and fiscally responsible.

For me, the 568.2MM+598 is expensive as I can go for the time being. Perhaps at some point in the future I'll upgrade to the 861, but it isn't in the forseeable future unless I pick up a sweetheart of a deal on an older model 861 (v1/v2) that can be updated to v3 status.

Regards,

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I've even heard of an effort to make hybrid discs that have SACD on one side and DVD-Audio on the other side of the same disc.

It's hard to imagine this as Sony & Philips would not seem likely to agree at all at this point. It would certainly need to be backward compatible to redbook to have long-term viability IMHO.

I would really like to see DVDA survive as long as the title releases are more than the trickle they are currently. I do still question $16K+ for gear for any high-rez format at this point.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I've never said that these solutions are cheap, they aren't. They're quite expensive, and more than the vast majority of people have in their entire HT. One has to decide for themself whether the purchase is justifiable and fiscally responsible.

I guess my view from 20 years in the audio business is that it would be better to not spend above $5K given the rapid advancements in hi-rez technology. I am intrigued by the new Meitner gear around $6-8K.

One is likely to get better sound by purchasing a good DVDA and spending $4,200 on a pair of Maggie 3.6s, for instance.

 

[Phil A]

Mark, I don't expect hardware issues to be a driving point with the mass market as in a couple of yrs. sub $200 list universal players will be the norm (not necessarily my choice but what will make it in the mass market). A case in point is DTS. Virtually every HT receiver today has both DD and DTS decoders built in. What about the mainstream software support? A very small % of DVDs have DTS capability (I have nothing against it and like their products if anyone wants to know), the default on software I've seen is to DD and DTS seems somewhat like the niche market that label like yours has, a ltd. audience that gets showcased on things like Superbit DVDs and a minor % of other software. DTS did not make headway on either HD-TV or DVD-A and it is not out the of question that it could share a similar fate of what is happening to VHS, becoming more scarce over time with lots of hardware out there.

What will make the formats grow beyond a niche? Software that is popular with the general public at prices that the market can support. By my count on the Hi-rez side, only Universal, Warner and Abkco are not smoking something at this point. The rest of the major labels are not yet down to reality. The depressed market is hurting all hi-rez. Also, Warner has test produced SACD (Joni Mitchell) and the album producer noted it in an interview along with his preferences. Both formats won't be going away in the short-term anyway.

John, when I go on "The Price is Right" can you sit in the audience and give me hand signals.

 

[Rich Malloy]

Also, Warner has test produced SACD (Joni Mitchell) and the album producer noted it in an interview along with his preferences.

?!??!??!

I find this very surprising. Do you happen to know who the producer is and what his preferences happen to be? Or, for that matter, any information about the production of this album for DVD-A?

And are we talking about "BLUE"?

That would be another album on a very short list [thusfar] that would make me take a real close look toward adding DVD-A to my system. But it would have to be, at the very least, a clear and undeniable upgrade over Steve Hoffman's work on the DCC gold disc.

 

[Phil A]

No it was "Both Sides Now" that came out on DVD-A and here is a link to some comments about it: http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?f...ow&r=&session=

 

[Phil A]

Further down in the replies to the above is the reference to the article that the producer preferred SACD:


http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.pl?f...s+now&session=

 

[Rich Malloy]

Thanks, Phil!

I feel then that the time I spent tracking down the DCC golds (BLUE and COURT AND SPARK) wasn't wasted. Still looking forward to hearing how the BLUE DVD-A turns out... but I simply don't have the faith in Warner Bros. that I do in Steve Hoffman. If what's been said about the production of "Both Sides Now" is true, highest possible quality isn't the first priority over at the WB.... though why in hell did they allow a DSD master to be made when obviously it was against their corporate interests to do so?

 

[Lee Scoggins]

From Phil's link:

The article goes on to quote Klein as saying "...the music actually sounds better, warmer, more detailed on SACD.." and "..it's the only digital format I've ever heard that sounds better in the studio than the analog 15 ips tape recorders with Dolby SR we've used up 'til now."

Thanks Phil - At least I can point to another producer/engineer that also feels the same way I do in addition to the normal fans of SACD.

 

[Phil A]

Lee, I've said it many times and hate to sound like a broken record (no format pun intended) but with even with the same titles out there, due to mastering and other differences I could only ascertain what I like better on my system (or whatever system I was listening to). In a studio, in a laboratory sense, either on a system I am familiar with or can spend some time with, is the only way I could tell which format I prefer. It is also quite possible that for different albums one can end up with a preference for different formats, especially given the many ways some material was recorded. In the perfect world, the musicians would be playing in my room when I wanted and I would not need to worry about a particular format or piece of equipment. Since there is little chance of that and I am not going to control who releases what on a particular format I can only purchase as a consumer what music I like and enjoy it.

What gets bad in these format wars is silly statements made either thru lack of thought or whatever reasons that do not have a basis in fact. Those problems were noted by myself and others within this thread. Anyone can make a mistake, however, over time repeated mistakes of a similar nature can certainly be construed as the person having a particular motive or agenda beyond information sharing and exchange of opinions. I try not to piss anyone off on purpose and Lee I hope you did not take offense to my comment that I prefer John as help on "The Price is Right."

:b