A Few Words About A few words about...™ Projector setup (1 Viewer)

[Robert Harris]

Agreed -- but that lens is nothing to sneeze at! But I am really mostly interested in your experiences with the projector series in general -- the frame adaptive HDR in particular.

I’m awaiting the new firmware update later this month. The updates - same situation with Sony - must be loaded from a PC to a thumb drive.

I’m a Mac user, which makes things a bit more difficult.

Wondering why updates can run through wi-fi? Possible errors?

 

[Michael Osadciw]

Errors happen with the thumb drive, too. When the NX5/7 was first released two years ago, there was an update soon thereafter. I did the update for the client as per JVC’s request, and followed their sequence. The update completely took out the projector by sending it into a eternal cycle of flashing amber and red lights.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

Hi Jeff,

I believe if you go into the menu and scroll down one section vertically below the Picture Settings menu that the HDR Mode settings are on that page. They are in the Signal menu under Advanced. Once you click into Advanced look for Dynamic Range. Once in that menu you will see a slider for the HDR modes from 1-16. I believe the default is 8 and if you go down from the there the image will get brighter particularly in the mid luminance range. I would try 5 or 6 and see but it is also content dependent. So if you have "The Revenant" on 4K Blu-ray put on the opening scene where Decaprio is in the river about to shoot the stag. Play with the HDR modes and you will see the difference in Luminance between them. Also make sure you haven't changed the Brightness setting from its default of 50 or the gamma which I believe is set to 0. It shouldn't be adjustable for HDR but it is unfortunately. Try this and let us know how you make out.

Ok, in the end I didn't make out well at all. I went into the Signal->Advanced->Dynamic Range menu. There was no slider for 16 HDR modes. There was another selection menu from top to bottom that had "Auto (Bright), Auto, SDR, HDR Mode1, HDR Mode 2, HDR Mode 3, and HDR Mode 4. That's it. It was currently set to 'Auto'. HDR Mode 1 was the brightest, while HDR Mode 4 was so dark, you could barely see a thing. I couldn't really tell a difference between HDR Mode 1 and Auto (Bright), while the Auto it was set to was a bit less bright than HDR Mode 1.

HDR Mode 1 did make it more bright, but it didn't look right. Things were washed out a little bit. I spent a good hour going back and forth through the different modes and brightness and contrast settings, but in the end it was just a big letdown. If I got it looking right for a dark scene, then a bright scene would be completely blown out. If I made it so the bright scene was not blowing out and clipping any detail, then the dark scene would be so dark, you could barely see anything. There was just no compromise or middle ground. With HDR enabled, I was losing a ton of detail, either on one end or the other.

In the end I just disabled HDR completely and went back to 4K SDR. Everything looked 100% better. Suddenly I could see all the detail in the dark scenes and the bright. HDR is just a big fail here. At least I get the Atmos Audio.

So I know people are going to say oh HDR is great, you just need to get it calibrated correctly, it's not a fail. But that's kind of my point. I've put 100x the effort and am much more knowledgeable about these things than 90% of the consumer base out there. If I can't get HDR to look even as good as SDR, and it requires expensive tools and calibrations and knowledge that 90% of people have no clue about to make it work properly, then how exactly is that a win? It's pretty sad, really. These kind of things should just work. It doesn't speak very well to the technology when most people who buy into it won't even be able to see a benefit or use it properly.

 

[Michael Osadciw]

Ok, in the end I didn't make out well at all..."Auto (Bright), Auto, SDR, HDR Mode1, HDR Mode 2, HDR Mode 3, and HDR Mode 4. That's it. It was currently set to 'Auto'. HDR Mode 1 was the brightest

You've got a 2018 model. That's right... you won't have the slider. There was an update to those modes at one point but it looks like you're up to date. If you leave it in Auto or HDR 1, that should be fine as long as you don't alter the HDR settings in the UHD Blu-ray player. Before I make a recommendation, do tell me about your system because you shouldn't be seeing an unwatchable image.

What's your screen diagonal size?
What's the screen aspect ratio?
What's the exact throw distance from your lens to your screen?
What's the screen manufacturer and model/screen surface?
Is it a perforated/weave screen?
What's your viewing distance from your eyes to your screen?
Are you always using Digital Cinema mode for your HDR evaluation?

 

[Mike Frezon]

Errors happen with the thumb drive, too. When the NX5/7 was first released two years ago, there was an update soon thereafter. I did the update for the client as per JVC’s request, and followed their sequence. The update completely took out the projector by sending it into a eternal cycle of flashing amber and red lights.

What was the outcome of that, Michael? Could you do a factory reset (or something of that sort?)

 

[Michael Osadciw]

That was the second time in. The first projector, an early 2019 purchase, had an issue after I calibrated it. It was fully replaced. The second one installed, I did the update on. It failed. It had to go back to JVC. There was nothing I could do on my end. They sent the projector back to the client with the newest software update. The third time was a charm. This was the only time I had issues with JVC (that I can remember). Everything else has been just fine. Although I can tell you the performance of the projector, like the NX5 and NX7, has changed quite a bit and for the better over the years. JVC was definitely doing some tweaking behind the scenes that made HDR grayscale calibration much more successful.

 

[Mark-P]

If you leave it in Auto or HDR 1, that should be fine as long as you don't alter the HDR settings in the UHD Blu-ray player.

I also have an Epson with the HDR1-4 settings. Let me make a small correction. “Auto” mode automatically switches between SDR and HDR2. ”Auto (Bright)” mode switches between SDR and HDR1 which is what I use because HDR2 is too dark for my 9-foot wide screen-size.

 

[sbjork]

I’m awaiting the new firmware update later this month. The updates - same situation with Sony - must be loaded from a PC to a thumb drive.

I’m a Mac user, which makes things a bit more difficult.

Wondering why updates can run through wi-fi? Possible errors?

I have always used thumb drives for firmware updates anyway for just that reason. As it is, I am paranoid about a power failure. The update to 3.10 went swimmingly, but I always sweat bullets until it is over -- the more expensive the hardware, the more painful the bricking can be!

 

[Jeff Cooper]

You've got a 2018 model. That's right... you won't have the slider. There was an update to those modes at one point but it looks like you're up to date. If you leave it in Auto or HDR 1, that should be fine as long as you don't alter the HDR settings in the UHD Blu-ray player. Before I make a recommendation, do tell me about your system because you shouldn't be seeing an unwatchable image.

What's your screen diagonal size?
What's the screen aspect ratio?
What's the exact throw distance from your lens to your screen?
What's the screen manufacturer and model/screen surface?
Is it a perforated/weave screen?
What's your viewing distance from your eyes to your screen?
Are you always using Digital Cinema mode for your HDR evaluation?

My screen is a 110" 16:9 Screen Innovations Zero Edge screen. The throw distance is 12 feet and the viewing distance is 10 feet. I'm actually not sure about the perforated/weave screen type. This theater system was built / installed / designed as a turn-key media room in a new home build so I did not purchase the individual components myself, just the entire package. So I am not sure of the finer details like that.

When viewing 4k HDR movies I do always use the DIgital Cinema mode.

I can think of 2 things that may be going on here. 1) The player is just shit. I did have the same brightness issues when the player was connected to a TCL 65" 4K Roku tv before I moved into the new house with the theater room. 2) As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I did ape all of these settings (minus auto-iris) as a baseline before my custom calibration: https://www.projectorreviews.com/ep...heater-projector-review-calibration-settings/ Maybe something set in there borked up things. Perhaps a factory reset to default settings is in order.

 

[Michael Osadciw]

My screen is a 110" 16:9 Screen Innovations Zero Edge screen.

If it's white, it's a 1.3 gain and should be brighter. If it's a gray screen, it's a 0.85, meaning the image projected to you will be darker than intended to achieve a darker black. It's a great screen for its purpose, but it does require more horsepower from the projector.

The throw distance is 12 feet and the viewing distance is 10 feet.

That's good.

I'm actually not sure about the perforated/weave screen type.

It won't be with the zero-edge. Perf/weave is used for acoustic transparency if you have speakers mounted behind the screen. There is light loss with acoustic screens.

When viewing 4k HDR movies I do always use the DIgital Cinema mode.

This is part of the problem. Even on the best of set ups, the light loss on Epson is staggaring in Digital Cinema. It's not worth cutting out half of your light for the extra colour. That 100 nit ceiling I was talking about is likely now only about 10 nits. That's not acceptable in any video system. Clearly you're not enjoying it, so use either Bright Cinema or Natural for HDR and forget about the colour filter. Think of this 2018 Epson as a great HD-SDR projector and UHD-HDR as a secondary 'nice to have' compatibility. If you want both high brightness and wide colour, you'll need the JVC, and it's priced appropriately to reflect that level of performance.

The player is just shit.

The player is fine. Reset to defaults.

I did ape all of these settings (minus auto-iris) as a baseline before my custom calibration https://www.projectorreviews.com/ep...heater-projector-review-calibration-settings/

Contrast at 65? You've got some heavy clipping happening there in the whites. I can't speak to how this reviewer came to that number because it doesn't say what patterns he was referring to, but raising the contrast control will clip HDR white. The review was done in 2018, and all professional calibrators were doing a bit of trial and error on projectors trying to squeak out maximum performance of HDR (based on the design limitations of the projector). What that reviewer did in 2018 likely won't be what he does today because the HDR evaluation toolset was more limited back then. So those settings that were published in 2018 are likely settings from methods.

I'm not against raising the contrast control if some systems truly need the bump in contrast, but you need to have a target code value to monitor for your reference white (e.g. code 504) and a target peak white that you've decided upon (e.g. maybe you want to preserve everything below 1500 nits). This decision will affect the HDR gamma curve and how you choose to apply tone mapping. At a contrast setting of 65, you could very well be clipping signal content below 1000nits or even 500 nits. That could explain why faces in Harry Potter look all blown out.

Short of bringing in a video calibrator to get your video system set up correctly, if you have no test patterns to reference, set to HDR Bright (Auto), reset your Sony player to default, change to Bright Cinema, and reduce contrast to 50 default. Then SLOWLY increase the contrast control one step at a time using bright scene material. Don't rush this process. Watch what details remained preserved and which ones disappear. Make some notes because on some films with mild HDR you may not notice much change (e.g. it's brightest white may only be 300nits), but on films with a more aggressive use of HDR, you may decide on a different setting because that film might have highlights as bright as 1800 nits or more. Pick one contrast setting since you don't want to be changing this all of the time and the Epson doesn't have any frame-adaptive HDR like the JVC. Make a judgement call of where you want to set the control. But if my memory serves me correctly, don't take contrast past 55 under the above settings. BTW, I've written all of this if you're still struggling for a brighter image, otherwise you can leave contrast at 50. You can try the above as well for Digital Cinema, but know that it will ALWAYS be half as bright.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

If it's white, it's a 1.3 gain and should be brighter. If it's a gray screen, it's a 0.85, meaning the image projected to you will be darker than intended to achieve a darker black.

It's a white screen so we should be good to go there.

That could explain why faces in Harry Potter look all blown out.

This one is most certainly a Goblet of Fire disk pressing error. I've seen the same complaints levied against it on the Digital Bits and several other reviews. White levels are just extremely high on this disc for some reason. It doesn't happen on any of the other Harry Potter movies, (nor any other of the 80 UHDs I own)

Short of bringing in a video calibrator to get your video system set up correctly, if you have no test patterns to reference, set to HDR Bright (Auto), reset your Sony player to default, change to Bright Cinema, and reduce contrast to 50 default. Then SLOWLY increase the contrast control one step at a time using bright scene material. Watch what details remained preserved and which ones disappear. Make a judgement call. But if my memory serves me correctly, don't take contrast past 55 under the above settings. You can do the same in Digital Cinema, but know that it will ALWAYS be half as bright.

I think I'm going to do a complete factory reset on both my player and projector. I've learned quite a lot about the projector from the time I started using it to now, that I feel very comfortable doing that.

And my apologies to Robert Harris for hijacking this thread with my own personal saga. Hopefully it at least stayed on topic of the thread.

 

[Michael Osadciw]

It's HDR projector setup, which is important for both JVC, Epson, and Sony. So I think we're all good here. Good luck with the reset

 

[OliverK]

I’m awaiting the new firmware update later this month. The updates - same situation with Sony - must be loaded from a PC to a thumb drive.

I’m a Mac user, which makes things a bit more difficult.

Wondering why updates can run through wi-fi? Possible errors?

Updates via wi-fi are a bit risky as there may be issues when you haven't got stable wi-fi.

I would also advise against immediate updates to a well calibrated system without first checking with your calibrator and possibly also within owners threads. It shouldn't be the case but updates have been known to cause issues and usually one cannot go back to the previous firmware.

This goes for all kinds of devices, not only projectors, but with a projector one has to take into account the effort that went into making it look as good as it does. With an NX9 calibrated by a pro one has a lot more to lose than with let's say a Fire TV.

 

[Monitorman]

It's a white screen so we should be good to go there.



This one is most certainly a Goblet of Fire disk pressing error. I've seen the same complaints levied against it on the Digital Bits and several other reviews. White levels are just extremely high on this disc for some reason. It doesn't happen on any of the other Harry Potter movies, (nor any other of the 80 UHDs I own)



I think I'm going to do a complete factory reset on both my player and projector. I've learned quite a lot about the projector from the time I started using it to now, that I feel very comfortable doing that.

And my apologies to Robert Harris for hijacking this thread with my own personal saga. Hopefully it at least stayed on topic of the thread.

Hi Jeff,

Contrast at 65 on that projector severely clip whites in either SDR or HDR. I would have it in Auto Bright with the HDR mode at 1 and Contrast at 50. Then if things still look blown out try HDR Mode 2. Good luck!

 

[sbjork]

Updates via wi-fi are a bit risky as there may be issues when you haven't got stable wi-fi.

I would also advise against immediate updates to a well calibrated system without first checking with your calibrator and possibly also within owners threads. It shouldn't be the case but updates have been known to cause issues and usually one cannot go back to the previous firmware.

This goes for all kinds of devices, not only projectors, but with a projector one has to take into account the effort that went into making it look as good as it does. With an NX9 calibrated by a pro one has a lot more to lose than with let's say a Fire TV.

Waiting a bit is always good advice with firmware. There are plenty of people who are more than willing to be guinea pigs. When JVC released the 3.10 firmware, as eager as I was to try out the new adaptive tone mapping, I waited a few weeks and kept tabs on forum threads to see if anyone had issues before pulling the trigger on it.

I may wait even longer on the next one as while it promises improvements, they can at best be incremental rather than as dramatic as 3.10 was. No need to rush. The only thing that would motivate me more would be if they finally push out a fix for the auto iris artifacts.

 

[Robert Harris]

It's a white screen so we should be good to go there.



This one is most certainly a Goblet of Fire disk pressing error. I've seen the same complaints levied against it on the Digital Bits and several other reviews. White levels are just extremely high on this disc for some reason. It doesn't happen on any of the other Harry Potter movies, (nor any other of the 80 UHDs I own)



I think I'm going to do a complete factory reset on both my player and projector. I've learned quite a lot about the projector from the time I started using it to now, that I feel very comfortable doing that.

And my apologies to Robert Harris for hijacking this thread with my own personal saga. Hopefully it at least stayed on topic of the thread.

You’re not hi-jacking. This is the purpose of the thread. Especially with input from bona fide calibrators.

 

[Jeff Cooper]

Well good news, doing a factory reset on both the player and the projector and setting it up for Bright Cinema / Auto(Bright) has done wonders. I'm now seeing good detail in both light and dark scenes with one not cancelling out the other. I still need to do some fine tuning as the picture is much softer / not as crisp anymore, but my faith is restored. Looks like my fatal mistake was taking the calibration settings from the other website. Funnily enough, I re-read that article today, and the first comment at the end of the page was someone questioning if they made a mistake in typing out their results, as they were having the exact same problem I was having.

 

[Mark-P]

This is part of the problem. Even on the best of set ups, the light loss on Epson is staggaring in Digital Cinema. It's not worth cutting out half of your light for the extra colour. That 100 nit ceiling I was talking about is likely now only about 10 nits. That's not acceptable in any video system. Clearly you're not enjoying it, so use either Bright Cinema or Natural for HDR and forget about the colour filter. Think of this 2018 Epson as a great HD-SDR projector and UHD-HDR as a secondary 'nice to have' compatibility. If you want both high brightness and wide colour, you'll need the JVC, and it's priced appropriately to reflect that level of performance.

Thanks for this tip. This is a great thread for learning! I've been using Cinema mode for both SDR and HDR, but I just tried Bright Cinema for HDR content and it looks a bit more natural, but of course much too bright for SDR.

 

[david hare]

I would also be prepared to contribute, in a modest way, towards an RH kickstarter. I would hate anyone, especially RH, to think my slight exercise of wit was in anyway directed to a suggestion that he was benefiting from any sort of sponsorship largesse. Anyway, I think really I was trying to cheer myself up. I suffered on Monday night the untimely death, in my arms, of our beloved 5 year old Jack Russell Calypso, who had a heart attack or stroke while undertaking her favourite task -- eating. We are deeply grieving -- I still cry when I think about it too much -- and will have to get a replacement the moment we can ... though little puppies now are as rare, and as expensive, as a fine projector, thanks to this Covid crap.

Deepest condolences Anthony. I pesosnally find the death of our four legged companions the worst part of old age, Theirs and ours.

 

[Michael Osadciw]

I still need to do some fine tuning as the picture is much softer / not as crisp anymore

Turn off 4K Image Enhancement (E-shift). It softens the picture. You're sitting far enough away from the screen to see the 1080p pixel structure, anyways. No need to blend it all together. Once turned off, leave the main menu up in the middle of the screen and refocus the projector using the projector focus controls. As you focus, look at letters in the menu like O and C and D - any letter with a curve. When you see the greatest contrast between pixel and the dark fill between each pixel, stop there. You're set. At this point I'd just recommend enjoying your movies now or else setup will become an OCD!