4802 or 5800 (1 Viewer)

[Doug Broccone]

Ok, so between the Denon 5800 and the 4802... are the Analoge Devices 1853 chips in the 5800 a lot better than the AD 1854 chips in the 4802?
Is the power increase a significant difference between the two Reciever/Amps so that I should forsake the DPL II and STILL give $650 more to get the 5800... (even before and upgrade)???
Doug
[Edited last by Doug Broccone on August 27, 2001 at 12:44 AM]

 

[EastonAltree]

The 4802 seems to be a safer bet. It includes one very underrated feature that yields major improvements in actual sound quality, an adjustable crossover. This will be Denon's first receiver that will allow one to adjust the crossover downward, in 20 hz increments to 40hz. This machine will be red-hot.

 

[TomH]

5800 ~$2400.00
170 wpc, 24/192 DACS
There is no guaranty that there really will be an upgrade an if there is it could cost up to $1000.00. A great receiver but the cost and risk are a bit high.
4802 ~$1800.00
125 wpc, 24/96 DACS, DPL2, Adjustable xover.
New model.
The 4800 actually outperformed its amp specs while the 5700 and 5800 underperformed. Search for reviews and tests to confirm. Hopefully the 4802 will do the same but it has not been tested yet.
I would wait for a 5800 upgrade confirmation before considering it. If you do not want to wait for the 5802 the 4802 is probably a reasonable choice.

 

[Will]

I'd wait until the 4802 comes out before deciding.
Right now, the 4802 does not even exist.

 

[Michael Lee]

Sources indicate that the 4802 will be in stores by the end of this week, so we'll know more very soon.
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[Doug Broccone]

Thanks guys...
The 4802 was supposed to be released today.
I'm going to put my order in to my indirect sales rep tommorow. I was just worried that the 4800/4802 wasn't "high end" enough to get true fidelity out of my freinds custom made speakers with the Scan Speaks drivers in them... I also wonder about the Chip set (AD 1854 vs 1853) and about the value of the raw power to the music...
what else I am missing...etc..?
Doug

 

[Patrick G]

I'd wait until the 4802 comes out before deciding.
Right now, the 4802 does not even exist.

Simply not true. It is out now, finally. It does exist.

 

[Will]

It is out now, finally.

Who has one for sale?

 

[JaleelK]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, so between the Denon 5800 and the 4802... are the Analoge Devices 1853 chips in the 5800 a lot better than the AD 1854 chips in the 4802?
Is the power increase a significant difference between the two Reciever/Amps so that I should forsake the DPL II and STILL give $650 more to get the 5800... (even before and upgrade)???
Doug>>>>>>>>>
Chips in receivers add nothing whatsoever to improve sound quality. As far as power ratings go, you can't really go by that, the way manufacturers give power rating for receivers. Unless you have a large room and that requires an amp with a lot of power to play really loud or at reference level without clipping, the amps in the 4802 compared to 5800 should not be an issue, the 4802 as well as many other of todays receivers have good amps with more than enough power for most of our home theaters.
Now you might want to purchase the 4802 over the 5800 because of Pro-logic-2( which to me is a useless feature and is step backwards in home theater sound), but I understand that the 5800 will be upgradeable to DPL-2.

 

[Geo]

Why is DPLII a useless feature for you?
I think it works great for sources that I use quite frequently....... DTV,Cable........ and not so often used VCR play.
I've been looking at these two receivers also along with several others (Onkyo 797/898, Integra DTR 8.2, Sony STR-DA5ES/3ES, H/K 7500/8500, etc......)most of which will be out shortly. What will probably happen is I'll pick up one of these in Sept. then when Denon figures out what they're doing to the 5800 I'll pick up the 5800/5802? and delegate the other to the bedroom system.
Sept and on will bring a lot of changes to my system....... can't wait.
Happy Hunting,
geo

 

[Todd Hochard]

Chips in receivers add nothing whatsoever to improve sound quality

Those are DACs that he speaks of, and considering all the different brands and configurations out there, they most certainly can and DO make a difference in sound quality.
The 5800 will do 24/192, while the 4802 will do 24/96. Is there even any 24/192 two channel software out there? I don't know. Also, the 5800 has multiple DACs per channel, which lowers the noise floor.
Read about the DACs:
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Is all this audible? Probably not to me. Your experience may differ.
Regarding DPLII, if you have no use for it- I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry that you've never watched a movie with a DPL/2-channel mix. You're missing a LOT.
The 4802 may be the better buy. Unfortunately, it also comes with that poor imitation of a Pronto remote, so the price is higher than it needs to be. The MSRP on the 4802 is very close to what the 5700 was, just over a year ago.
Todd

 

[Lewis Besze]

I wouldn't loose any slep over the DAC chips,or their filters.There aren't any true 24bit dacs out there anyway since it's dynamic range should clock at 140db[theoritically].The current so called 24/96/192 dacs give around 20bit[ at the most] resolution based on their measurments,by independent sources.
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"You Hungarians always disagree"

 

[TomH]

Take a look at the Onkyo 797 and 898 thread before deciding. There is a link with pictures and specs.
Tom

 

[Doug Broccone]

Well, I sell Denon so I get it at a discount. That's why I won't be looking at the Onkyos. I think Onks are nice and all, but the Denon rep Mike Turner sold me on Denon's build quality.
I'm looking at it like... theres a $650 dollar difference for me, between the 5800 and the 4802. I can get one for $1250, and the other for $1900 I see the Heat sinks on the 5800 and my heart pounds thinking of how much power (cooling) that's supposed to represent... All I know is all or most of the good seperates have tremendous Heat sinks and weigh about as much as my Japanese car...while the 4800/02 has the same rating as the 3801/02!!! but the 5800 will definitely be outdated soon... and will cost more money for the upgrade...which still might not bring it up to par with the new model. However I may not be working for the same company buy the time the 5802 or whatever comes out, so I have to make a decision between the 5800 and the 4802...with the new DPL2 and Adjustable Sub Crossovers...
I'm torn...
DOug
[Edited last by Doug Broccone on August 28, 2001 at 01:21 AM]
[Edited last by Doug Broccone on August 28, 2001 at 01:28 AM]

 

[Ricky T]

Doug,
If it's the little extra oopphh you are looking for between receivers, you should get the 4802 for $1250 and buy the real thing amp. With your discounts, you can probably get the solid poa5200 120x2 amp(200x2 into 4 ohms) for under $400. IMO, the 5200 amp will outperform the 5800 receiver if they were measured 20 - 20k hz and down to 2 ohms. Who cares are the single 1k hz test result into 8 ohms?

 

[Brian Corr]

I don't suppose you could get a few extra 4802's at that price?? Pretty please!!

 

[Oliver]

I am just back from the IFA show in Berlin, and of course went to the Denon surround presentation which was done with the AVC 11SR the euro version of the AVR 4802. This is quite an impressive machine, fully loaded DPL II and DTS 96/24. The DPL II was quite impressive, have to say that this is a good feature to have for music. DPL II cinema does also have THX post processing if you like.
Both models AVC 11SR and AVC A1SE (AVR 5800) also where shown with remove covers side by and this is where you can see the difference in built quality, and where the AVC 11SR just does not play in the same league. They both have the same transformator in power supply, but the AVC A1SE has the doubble amounth of condensator capacity. Just an example of a lot of deatails explaining why the AVC 11SR/AVR 4802 is cheaper than the AVC 5800.
As for the upgrade, yes Denon is still working on that one and the AVR 5800 will have all the features the AVR 4802 has.
the reason why this upgrade may cost some more bucks than expected is that for some of those features the DSP power of the AVR 5800 isn't enouth. While they both use Sharc processors, the AVR 4802 are neuwer modells running faster than those in the AVR 5800. This is why the plans are to change the hole digital board. please remenber that this is no officiel press news, but the Denon representativ I spoke was one with a hole lot off technical know how as we when in electronic details, and told me think he could only know if he was involved in the upgrade process, so I hope the upgrade will become a reality. As for the Price in Germany, still not officiel, will be around DM 1000,- and that is about US$ 500,-. Hope it will stay that level.
By the way for those who are thinking of an AVR 5802, the interesting thing is that I was told that it apears to be unlikely that a unit like that will hit market any time soon, at least not in the first half of 2002. The upgrade seems to have priority.
In all, the AVR 5800 is still King f the Hill, and if the Upgrade is done early next year still will be.
I see right now only on dangerous Modell come the way, the new Pioneer Flagship, number 49 or something like that, I had the chance to listen at the show with some material and the "lord of the Rings" trailer. This machine is fantastic also thanks to it's Automatic Room measuring and equalizing system. Sound fantastic. The Cuba overflight in "13Th Days" was breathtaking, but also the sound reproduction of "the Cell" was a great joy to listen to.
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[JaleelK]

Those are DACs that he speaks of, and considering all the different brands and configurations out there, they most certainly can and DO make a difference in sound quality.>>>
But can you detect an audible difference in sound quality between 24/96 and 24/192, I say no, its joke. I know if you were given a blind test and was asked to distinguish which DAC were 24/96 v. 24/192 you couldn't do it.
The 5800 will do 24/192, while the 4802 will do 24/96. Is there even any 24/192 two channel software out there? I don't know. Also, the 5800 has multiple DACs per channel, which lowers the noise floor.>>>
I read about a lot about DACS and have consulted audio engineers and they all agree that the type of resolution that we are supposed to get from such DACS is not possible, So its just marketing hype.
Read about the DACs: Link Removed Link Removed
Is all this audible? Probably not to me. Your experience may differ.
Regarding DPLII, if you have no use for it- I feel sorry for you. I feel sorry that you've never watched a movie with a DPL/2-channel mix. You're missing a LOT.>>>>>
I have no need for DPL-2 because I don't watch much TV, and I own about 200 DVD's and of that 200 only about 5 are DPL, the rest of them are either DD 5.1 or DTS 5.1. I have no need for matrix surround, I have sold most software that I owned that wasn't 5.1. I rarely buy a DVD that isn't 5.1 encoded. "Once you go discrete you can't go back".

 

[Jeremy Hegna]

Thanyou Oliver for your insight...that is great news for those of us with a 5800/AV1-SE. Your conversations seem to echo exactly what I was told by Denon management a couple of months ago.
The sonic differences between the 4800 and 5800 are very apparent. Without adding to the amplification system in the 4802, I would think the same holds true when comparing this to the 5800 as well. It is too early to tell, since no one has one yet.
To the original poster,
I would go with the 5800. Even if faced with buying a new receiver right now, I would go with the flagship. It does seem that Denon is commited to the upgrade from the conversations so many have had with their employees. If you take into account your discounts, you're still up damn near $1500 from the MSRP including a $500 upgrade. $1900+$500=$2400...$3800 MSRP, you'll be saving $1400 from the retail price. It should be easier to make the decision once you have the 4802 in house to play with.
Jeremy

 

[Elbert Lee]

I believe that DACs CAN make a difference depending on your source material and speakers. I've heard a very noticable improvement in smoothness, soundstage, and clarity when comparing the 5800 to the 4800 (both using a KRELL 2 channel amp). I've tried using the 5800 and the 4800 by themselves on an NHT 2.5i system and the 5800 was superior, but to a lesser degree. Then again, the 5800 is also supposed to have other superior components.
The 4800 is in the bedroom now where my wife listens to her music, which consists largely of pop and techno. (I doubt that TECHNO and club music will demonstrate any significant differences between these 2 receivers). I was very impressed with the 4800's power, though. It smoked the Yamaha RXV-1 that I had in there before (in terms of power)
In the end, the degree with which the 4802 and 5800 will improve your system will vary. If you have full range speakers, I would try going up to the 5800, but that's me.
All indicators are that the 5800 will be upgradable to the same features as the 4802.
In regards to DPLII -I disagree that it's a step backward. It's a step forward for DPL and a reinforcement for forward progress on future receivers. We may see a SDDS 8.1, DTS 9.1 24/96, and Dolby Digital SUPER, but still have a Pro Logic decoder on our future receivers. Same can be said of DTS NEO - both are superior to DPL, especially for Television broadcasts, sat or cable. There's an immediate upgrade for hours of existing material, whereas a new surround format may take years before new source material is available. I don't think it will encourage studios to press Dolby 2.0 discs in the future. The reason DPLII is being talked about is the wider variety of source material that it can be used to enhance. There's always resistance to new formats because of slow industry acceptance and need to upgrade by addicted HT enthusiats who grumble about early adopter costs.
Elbert
Elbert