1080p inputs at CEDIA: Information and Misinformation

Discussion in 'CEDIA EXPO 2005-2007' started by RAF, Sep 15, 2005.

  1. RAF

    RAF Lead Actor

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    Without a doubt, one of the buzz words at CEDIA was 1080p. There were lots of 1080p monitors around but, surprisingly, not so many that actually accept a 1080p native signal. I'm starting this thread to have a dialogue about 1080p information and misinformation. Let me get the ball rolling:

    A 1080p monitor is capable of displaying a 1080p signal. However, it doesn't necessarily accept a 1080p signal as an input. It can produce 1080p with its internal scaler, scaling up lesser sources to achieve 1080p pictures. Right now this is not a major problem because there is very little 1080p source material out there and this is usually limited to HTPCs and other "hobbyist" applications.

    However this situation will change shortly with the eventual introduction of High Definition DVD players. By next year, lots of people will have Sony Playstation 3s and I'm willing to bet that Blu-Ray will offer 1080p output. For those who have 1080p sets that do not accept 1080p input directly this means that they will have to take a lower resolution output from the player and feed it into the display which will then scale it back to 1080p for viewing. That's two stages of scaling (down and up) that don't need to be in the loop and two places where artifacts and other picture degradation can be introduced. With a 1080p input on a 1080p set you avoid this altogether. So while buying a 1080p set without 1080p input might not mean much right now, it surely will in a year or so and retrofitting the display will not be easy, if at all possible.

    One of the problems is that statements such as, "the HDMI standard does not yet support 1080p" were being bandied about by some at CEDIA - mostly the manufacturers whose sets don't accept native 1080p input. This is not really true. While the current HDMI specification (version 1.2 adopted on 08/22/05) doesn't have 1080p listed in its minimum standards that doesn't mean that HDMI doesn't support 1080p. There are plenty of devices out there with HDMI jacks that use 1080p. However, in order to support 1080p input, the device must contain the chipset and associated circuitry to use it properly. And more electronics = higher cost in a very competitive business. A little later (maybe 16-24 months from now) the HDMI specification will add 1080p to the minimum standard as a mandate and then all new devices will have to support 1080p. But until then, it's CAVEAT EMPTOR. For now a lot of the manufacturers are skirting the issue.

    Lots more to discuss, but I'll open the floor to comments rather than ranting on at this point. Feel free to jump in here.
     
  2. Matt Wright

    Matt Wright Stunt Coordinator

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    So the really uncertain part here is whether the electronics at the other end of the HDMI connector really can do 1080p or not. Perhaps [wishful thinking] some manufacturers are being careful and currently calling it "1080i only" until shipping next gen Hi-Def DVD players capable of real native 1080p output are available for testing.

    The "line" many companies are telling people is that the best source to feed one of the 1080p sets is 1080i and then just let the TV deinterlace it. The manufactuers then brag about their deinterlacing/scaling units and how you'd never know the difference, etc. etc..
     
  3. RAF

    RAF Lead Actor

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    That's just technobabble to rationalize their cost-cutting methods. It might actually make sense right now when there isn't very much native 1080p source material but once 1080p sources become common no amount of rationalization is going to change the fact that forcing the 1080p source material to scale down and then scale up again will introduce two undesirable stages of processing. The signal has to be affected.

    And no matter how good the internal scalers are on some of these sets, no scaling at all is even better.

    We live in interesting times....
     
  4. Jamie E

    Jamie E Stunt Coordinator

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    Robert, thanks for that clear explanation. I find it pretty amazing when this topic comes up on other forums, many who have already bought (or who really, really want to buy) a new 1080p TV, try to rationalize this lacking feature by saying that a 1080p digital input really isn't necessary. To that, I say a full 1920x1080 display isn't really necessary right now either since OTA, cable, and satellite HD broadcasts aren't approaching the full potential resolution of HD, delivering perhaps only 1200x1080.

    Of course, no one would buy a 1200x1080 display, because we all know that HD-DVD and Blu-Ray are just around the corner, and they WILL deliver a full resolution HD picture. For the same reason, I feel it would be silly to limit yourself to a maximum digital input of 1080i, with many 1080p sources coming up.
     
  5. RAF

    RAF Lead Actor

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    Yes, I agree. If you are purchasing a 1080p display to last somewhere around 10 years or so it probably would be prudent to look for something that accepts 1080p native input, especially since some manufacturers offer them right now. It is true that there is not much 1080p source material available today but I'm relatively sure this will change within a year or two. The first salvo might be high definition DVDs (either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD or whatever) but one never knows if there will be 1080p connection problems due to all the copyright protection issues. I predict that it will be a bit rough at first (connecting 1080p output to 1080p input from commercial sources) because of this. For example, I have been told that some Cable boxes from Scientific Atlanta that provide 1080p output on an experimental basis have trouble interfacing with some 1080p input capable displays since the display can't interpret the 1080p signal as being a valid one and all you get is blue screen (or green screen) with an error message stating that the source material is copyrighted.

    Some people are willing to forego native 1080p input because the sets will scale up other resolutions to 1080p for display and it looks very, very good by today's standards. And since there is an outside chance that true 1080p sources, on a large scale, might be a bit further away than we think they are willing to buy 1080p sets that only scale to 1080p. That thinking involves wanting the best possible picture right now without being concerned with possible future sources. In those cases, the buyer will live with the lack of 1080p input and deal with this when 1080p native sources are the norm. It's called "upgrading." [​IMG]

    I'm torn. On one hand I'd like a set that offers 1080p input. On the other hand that SONY SXRD 50" set looks very sweet! I predict that this will be one of the more confusing aspects of Home Video over the next several years as more people acquire HD hardware.
     
  6. Adam Gregorich

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    Keep in mind that the current 1080P rear projection DLP chips don't have 1920x1080 mirrors. They are 960X1080. They use pixal shifting (wobulation) to get the full resolution. The front projection chips will be a true 1920x1080. That doesn't mean it can't look good (HP and Optima looked great),
     
  7. Adam Gregorich

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  8. Sam Posten

    Sam Posten Moderator
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    I REALLY would like to buy the new Sony 50" SXRD set, but for me blowing $4k on a set that can show 1080p but not accept it via inputs is MADNESS.

    How many consumers will be misled into thinking these sets will display pixel perfect 1080p from a Playstation 3 and be totally bummed out that after spending $4k it WONT WORK???

    Sam
     
  9. Matt Wright

    Matt Wright Stunt Coordinator

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    That HP seemed to get quite a favorable write-up from Sound and Vision Magazine.

    Is there a list of the other 1080p sets that can actually accept 1080p via HDMI? DLP tech doesn't really do it for me. I would prefer an LCoS set if I had to choose rear projection.
     
  10. Adam Gregorich

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    I am trying to verify if the JVC and Sony LCoS sets accept 1080P.
     
  11. Adam Gregorich

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    I left a message for my contacts with JVC to verify the 1080P input issue. In the meantime here is some additioanl information on their new sets including pricing and availability:

    JVC expands its HD-ILA microdisplay rear projection television line this month with the introduction of three new models that provide 1080p resolution.

    The new JVC DesignerPro Series offers screen sizes of 56, 61 and 70 inches, and each uses three of the company’s new 1920 x 1080, 0.7-inch D-ILA device – a vertically-oriented LCOS (liquid crystal on silicon) technology that adds an inorganic alignment layer that stabilizes device performance and maximizes chip production. The three-chip structure has the ability to continuously reproduce a flicker- and burn-free picture. In addition, an invisible pixel structure ensures that there are no color or motion artifacts, and a true analog grey scale provides outstanding gradations of black levels. The three models in the new DesignerPro Series are the HD-56FH96, HD-61FH96 and the HD-70FH96.

    “Our new DesignerPro series delivers a pixel count of over 2 million pixels, producing a true 1920 x 1080 high definition image,” explained Dan McCarron, National Product Manager for JVC’s Consumer Display Division. “The introduction of these new sets clearly demonstrates the picture quality advantages that our D-ILA technology delivers.”

    The 1080p HD-ILA sets feature several new advancements, including the fifth generation of JVC’s D.I.S.T. (Digital Image Scaling Technology) and Genessa, a 32-bit CPU dedicated to controlling picture refinement. JVC’s D.I.S.T. seamlessly upscales any video source to display at full high definition 1080p.

    Also new in JVC’s 1080p televisions is a new 3 Step Optical Iris system that improves black levels and gradation in dark scenes, a Digital Noise Suppressor that detects and eliminates “block noise”, a Mosquito Noise Suppressor that eliminates noise without degrading the image, and a 3D Y/C comb filter with DTV Cross Color Eliminator that uses an advanced 10-bit 3D Y/C separation process to eliminate cross color and dot interference that is imbedded in older source material.

    Other image-enhancing technologies include JVC’s Five-Point Color Management System, Motion Adaptive Dynamic Gamma Control, Digital Super Detail edge enhancement, Digital Noise Clear circuitry, and five video status settings (D6500K/ standard/game/theater/dynamic).

    All three sets are ATSC tuner/CableCARD™-equipped and feature dual HDMI with HDCP inputs, two IEEE 1394 Firewire ports, PC input, and optical digital audio output and a media card reader.

    Availability and pricing for JVC’s DesignerPro televisions are:


    Model Approximate
    Retail Price
    Available
    HD-56FH96 $4,000 October 2005
    HD-61FH96 $4,500 October 2005
    HD-70FH96 $6,000 October 2005
     
  12. Adam Gregorich

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    I heard back from JVC this maorning. Because the current HDMI spec (1.22?) doesn't support 1080P, the HDMI connections on the new JVC LCoS 1080P sets only supports a 1080i input. I will check with Sony later this week.
     
  13. Sam Posten

    Sam Posten Moderator
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    Everything I have read (mostly at AVS) suggests Sony opted not to spend the extra dough to make the 50" SXRD 1080p compliant because they didnt think that consumer demand would be there for it, yet. /boggle
     
  14. RAF

    RAF Lead Actor

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    Adam,

    With all due respect it's not that the current HDMI spec (version 1.2 08/22/05) doesn't support 1080p, it's just that it doesn't mandate it. If you read over the 200+ page specification you will see lots of references to 1080p and other parameters that are necessary to support that standard (bandwidth, etc.) What it doesn't say is that that 1080p inputs must be there are part of the minimum standard. As you know, HDMI cables are capable of carrying 1080p signals but that doesn't mean that the associated circuitry will be at the input side of a product to be able to handle it. According to people who have been following this on a daily basis, the excuse that a manufacturer's device with HDMI input "doesn't support 1080p input because HDMI doesn't support it" is just a smokescreen to allow said manufacturer to cut corners in their products until they are made to support 1080p input.

    And Sam, I'm not surprised that some vendors are trying to shift the blame for not having 1080p inputs to the consumers "because they don't want it." More technobabble, my friend! [​IMG] Are we suddenly going to want 1080p input when the Sony Playstation comes out with Blu-Ray capability? Watch how quickly the manufacturers come out with 1080p input support when there are lots of 1080p sources. These people want us to buy a new monitor every time they choose to add features rather than giving us the option of trying to avoid some of the built-in obsolescence that they are putting on the table.

    My 2 cents.
     
  15. Adam Gregorich

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    RAF-
    I understand the standard, I was just passing along what they sent me. I think it is fairly short sighted for any manufacture to release a disply product that is unable to accept an input for the displays native resolution. I can totally understand a 720p being unable to accept 1080P, but not a 1080P display.
     
  16. Gregg Loewen

    Gregg Loewen Video Standards Instructor, THX Ltd.
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    hi guys

    I understand this.....they want to sell you a replacement set in 2 years time. On a side note, they will most likely have the bugs out by then.

    [​IMG]
     
  17. RAF

    RAF Lead Actor

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    Adam,

    We are definitely on the same page here. I like your statement



    since it summarizes the situation very succintly as far as I'm concerned. In fact, I'm going to practice what you preach with my next few monitor purchases. As you know, I'm getting a 720p/1080i set for the bedroom (Panasonic TH-37PX50U 37" Plasma) where 1080p is a non-issue. However, when I replace my old Pioneer Elite 45" Pro-75 RPM later this year with a 1080p set for "regular" TV in the HT, I am going to insist on 1080p input. Unfortunately, that leaves out the current crop of SONY SXRD 50"/60" monitors and I'm going to be looking closer at those new HP monitors (DLP) or wait for some LCoS monitors in the 50-58" range to appear with 1080p inputs.
     

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