Jump to content



Sign up for a free account to remove the pop-up ads

Signing up for an account is fast and free. As a member you can join in the conversation, enter contests and remove the pop-up ads that guests get. Click here to create your free account.

Photo
- - - - -

Dolby True-HD and DTS-HD


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
44 replies to this topic

#1 of 45 OFFLINE   Chris Huber

Chris Huber

    Second Unit



  • 416 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 02 2003

Posted March 08 2006 - 02:17 AM

I need to understand these... I've been to Dolby.com and dtsonline.com to review the technology. 1. Will the Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players coming out soon support and output this? I am aware that the software(disc) must have this encoded too. When will they start encoding this on discs? 2. Obviously, current receivers will be able to play new stuff in regular 5.1(DD EX, DTS-ES), since the new audio format will include the old on the datastream as well, right? 3. When will we see new receivers that can decode Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD? Will these be fake 7.1 (like the current) or will they be true 7.1(or at least a step up from PLIIx)?

#2 of 45 OFFLINE   JediFonger

JediFonger

    Producer



  • 3,945 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 02 2006

Posted March 21 2006 - 07:42 AM

1. yes, both BR&HD-DVD support this in their spex. in fact, it's BECAUSE of BR&HD-DVD that DD-HD, TrueHD, DTS-HD are coming out. it's upto the studios when they'll start encoding. AFAIK, there's been no confirmation on whether the 3 new HD-DVDs (phantom of opera, last samurai and million dollar baby) will be authored with HD versions of their soundtrack. let's hope it is soon. 2. well, here's what's gonna happen. the BR/HD-DVD player will transcode DD-HD, TrueHD, DTS-HD to DD&DTS formats that we now know. in fact, even the new Toshiba players coming out next week will decode the new surround formats but spit them out in existing/compatible formats. in the future when new a/v receivers come out decoding HD surround formats, you won't (supposedly) need any new equipment to enjoy HD surround formats. 3. i've been asking the same question. with the player+software launch so close, i haven't seen/heard any a/v receiver mfr announcing anything. i'm hoping Denon's planning one real soon. i really hope they utilize HDMI connection to the max.

#3 of 45 OFFLINE   Tim Vickroy

Tim Vickroy

    Extra



  • 23 posts
  • Join Date: Apr 30 2002

Posted March 21 2006 - 08:35 AM

I don't think Yi's reply is entirely accurate. First of all, I believe the answer to your first question is NO. The first wave of HD DVD & Blu-ray players will not support DD HD or DTS-HD. This is because these formats rely on HDMI 1.3 to be passed digitally to the receiver (earlier HDMI versions as well as optical & coaxial just don't have the bandwidth). HDMI 1.3 won't have a final spec until June / July. The first DVD players, receivers, etc. with HDMI 1.3 probably won't show up until early 2007.

#4 of 45 OFFLINE   JediFonger

JediFonger

    Producer



  • 3,945 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 02 2006

Posted March 21 2006 - 09:00 AM

tim, have you been checking out Toshiba player spex? all HD-DVD&BluRay will support decoding HD sountracks. whether movie studios will choose the encode the discs with HD soundtracks remain to be seen. a spec is a spec is a spec. the firstwave of DVD players supported decoding Dolby Digital so users can hear it either using analog or coaxial toslink. that's why the consortium spec'd DD into DVD. likewise for the HD discs. all of what i wrote above will come independent of HDMI. whether HDMI spex pass the info or not is irrelevant. i believe the players output 7.1 using analog RCA plugs. so any a/v receivers can hear HD soundtracks if they accept analog inputs. i dunno whether they can pass HD sountracks through coaxial or toslink.

#5 of 45 OFFLINE   Daryl Furkalo

Daryl Furkalo

    Second Unit



  • 374 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 08 2000

Posted March 21 2006 - 09:12 AM

The question is whether the players will decode the higher res audio on board or pass the signal via HDMI. Each manufacturer has a different answer on generation one. HDMI 1.3 will have the copy protection the studios feel they need, I don't think there is any technical limit on the data transfer with the previous versions of HDMI.

#6 of 45 OFFLINE   Dave Moritz

Dave Moritz

    Producer



  • 3,484 posts
  • Join Date: Jul 07 2001

Posted March 21 2006 - 02:00 PM

I would not count on Denon offering any new surround hd decoding anytime soon. I emailed Denon and the only thing they would say is that there are no plans to offer DD+ & DTS-HD any time soon. In another email Denon said there will be no HD-DVD or Blu-ray will be offered until the format war is over. I had hoped that Denon would offer a Blu-ray HD player but that will not be happening for the forseeable future. So I will be looking to purchase ether a Sony or Pioneer Elite Blu-ray hd player. I however wonder how good the quality will be on the dd+ / dts-hd decoders built into the hd players? Will they be high quality capible of high end audio?

Supporter of 1080p & 4K/UHD video (256 Blu-ray Titles)/ Supporter of Lossless PCM, Dolby True HD and DTS HD Master Audio / Say No To MP3 & WMA / Say no to Bose

 

 
 

 


#7 of 45 OFFLINE   Johnny G

Johnny G

    Supporting Actor



  • 791 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 12 2000

Posted March 21 2006 - 07:25 PM

The specs are out for the first 3 HD-DVD titles:- Million Dollar Baby Main Feature: 1080P HD 16x9 2.40:1 Dolby Digital-Plus: English 5.1 & French 5.1 English, French and Spanish subtitles Extra Features: 480i Standard Definition Stereo Sound James Lipton Takes on Three: Roundtable with Clint Eastwood, Hilary Swank, Morgan Freeman and Moderator James Lipton Born to Fight: A discussion with real-life boxer/actress Lucia Rijker Producers Round 15: Behind the Scenes Theatrical Trailer The Last Samurai Main Feature: 1080P HD 16x9 2.40:1 Dolby Digital-Plus: English 5.1, French 5.1, Spanish 2.0 English, French and Spanish subtitles Extra Features: 480i Standard Definition Stereo Sound Commentary by Edward Zwick Deleted Scenes Edward Zwick: Director's Video Journal History vs. Hollywood: The Last Samurai {History Channel Documentary) Tom Cruise: A Warrior's Journey Making an Epic: A Conversation with Edward Zwick A World of Detail: Production Design with Lilly Kilvert Silk and Armor: Costume Design with Ngila Dickson From Soldier to Samurai: The Weapons Japan Premieres Imperial Army Basic Training Theatrical Trailer The Phantom of the Opera Main Feature: 1080P HD 16x9 2.40:1 Dolby True HD: English 5.1 Dolby Digital-Plus: English 5.1 & French 5.1 English, French and Spanish subtitles Extra Features: 480i Standard Definition Stereo Sound Behind the Mask: The story of The Phantom of the Opera The Making of The Phantom of the Opera in 3 Spellbinding Acts: Pre-Production The Director Production No One Would Listen: Additional Scene Singalong Theatrical Trailer __________________________________________________ __________ So at least one of them has Dolby True HD and all have Dolby Digital-Plus or is that standard for HD?

#8 of 45 OFFLINE   JediFonger

JediFonger

    Producer



  • 3,945 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 02 2006

Posted March 22 2006 - 01:51 AM

yeah DD+ is DD-HD (next gen HD codec from Dolby but still compressed). TrueHD is unique in the sense that it's supposed to be uncompressed like DVD-Audio. really high quality. thx for the spex =). so the disc will have the material. the toshiba players will be able to decode it and output via analog 7.1 rca plugs or will it pass those signals digitally over coaxial/toslink? anyone know? re: HDMI 1.3, i thought 1.3 only adds DVD-Audio&SACD and HDMI spex already passed DD+&truehd.

#9 of 45 OFFLINE   Juan C

Juan C

    Second Unit



  • 450 posts
  • Join Date: Jan 22 2003

Posted March 22 2006 - 02:05 AM

The Toshiba 1st-gen players only decode 2-channel Dolby TrueHD.

#10 of 45 OFFLINE   JediFonger

JediFonger

    Producer



  • 3,945 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 02 2006

Posted March 22 2006 - 02:36 AM

found my answer:

http://www.hometheat....0930#post20930

#11 of 45 OFFLINE   Greg T

Greg T

    Stunt Coordinator



  • 125 posts
  • Join Date: Aug 03 2003

Posted March 22 2006 - 04:36 AM

Of all the announced players from either format....only the PS3 will pass 5.1 or 7.1 DD Tru-HD multi channel via hdmi 1.3. Ironic that a game machine will do what no other hi res player will. Also, all or most, depending on which article you read, Sony/MGM titles will have multi channel(at least 5.1) uncompressed audio. And finally...no announced players have more than 5.1 analog outs.

#12 of 45 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

DaViD Boulet

    Lead Actor



  • 8,805 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 24 1999

Posted March 22 2006 - 08:56 AM

"Main Feature: 1080P HD 16x9 2.40:1 Dolby True HD: English 5.1 Dolby Digital-Plus: English 5.1 & French 5.1 English, French and Spanish subtitles" Why both DD True HD *and* DD+ English 5.1? Isn't DD True HD enough since the player can transcode to legacy DD??? Personally, I'm a little disappointed that only one of these HD DVD titles seems to be pushing for lossless audio compression. IMO, that is *the* next most important step-up with HD media after 1080P video...
Be an Original Aspect Ratio Advocate

Supporter of 1080p24 video and lossless 24 bit audio.

#13 of 45 OFFLINE   JediFonger

JediFonger

    Producer



  • 3,945 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 02 2006

Posted March 22 2006 - 02:35 PM

david, that was my point in DD5.1 downmix into DD2.0 as well =). think about it: have only ONE track: TrueHD 7.1 downmixes into DDEX (6.1), which can downmix into DD2.0!

#14 of 45 OFFLINE   AaronMK

AaronMK

    Supporting Actor



  • 768 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 30 1999
  • Real Name:Aaron Karp
  • LocationOrlando, FL

Posted March 26 2006 - 04:50 AM

According to Dolby's website, DD+ is backwards compatible (will output a DD bitstream for current systems), but no similar capability is mentioned for TrueHD. Could you please cite your source for saying:
It is one thing to be able to decode and output 5.1 over analog outputs, or to take a subset of a DD+ track. It is another thing to compress and encode a DD 5.1 bitsream in realtime. If TrueHD does not have backwards compatibility, the player would have to decode and then encode a standard DD bitstream on the fly. Are the HD players capable of on-the-fly DD 5.1 encoding, and doing a good job of it? I'd imagine if this were not an issue, they would not be including a backward compatible track along with the lossless track.

#15 of 45 OFFLINE   Jeff(R)

Jeff(R)

    Second Unit



  • 372 posts
  • Join Date: May 14 1999

Posted March 26 2006 - 12:16 PM


This is what I found during a Google search.

http://www.dolby.com....HD_avrs_2.html

"If your A/V receiver or processor has neither multichannel analog or digital inputs, but is equipped with 5.1-channel Dolby® Digital decoding and playback, you will still be able to enjoy 5.1-channel performance from next-generation optical players. Included within 7.1-channel multichannel Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD streams is a core 5.1 mix prepared by the content maker that is used when the player is set for 5.1-channel mode. After playback audio signals have been mixed in the player, the PCM signal can be encoded to a Dolby Digital signal and output from the player via S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) to your connected Dolby Digital A/V receiver or processor.

In many instances, the audio quality you will experience from this connection may be better than what you would experience during playback of standard-definition DVD-Video discs, especially if the native signal on the disc is Dolby TrueHD or high-bit-rate Dolby Digital Plus. This is a direct result of a higher-quality source signal feeding a Dolby Digital encoder running at 640 kbps—higher than the maximum bit rate on DVD-Video."

#16 of 45 OFFLINE   DaViD Boulet

DaViD Boulet

    Lead Actor



  • 8,805 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 24 1999

Posted March 26 2006 - 01:48 PM

Jeff, great post. This makes me wonder though:
Sounds like Jeff's quote actually *confirms* that even though it uses the "core" terminology along the way.
Be an Original Aspect Ratio Advocate

Supporter of 1080p24 video and lossless 24 bit audio.

#17 of 45 OFFLINE   AaronMK

AaronMK

    Supporting Actor



  • 768 posts
  • Join Date: Oct 30 1999
  • Real Name:Aaron Karp
  • LocationOrlando, FL

Posted March 26 2006 - 05:57 PM

Jeff, Thank you for finding that. The next paragraph after you stopped quoting read:
Unfortunately, that page raises as many questions as it answers. Does "core" refer to a pre-downmixed 5.1 in TrueHD or Plus track so the player does not have to "guess" at it, or a standard DD 5.1 track? If it is the latter, the player would not need an encoder since it would just extract and pass the standard bitstream. The optional onboard encoder would be nice for video overlays so both the soundtracks could be mixed instead of having to select one or the other. If both TrueHD and Plus have the same backwards compatibility, the only reason I can think of that they are including both on 'Phantom' is because the first generation Toshiba only supports 2ch TrueHD.

#18 of 45 OFFLINE   JediFonger

JediFonger

    Producer



  • 3,945 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 02 2006

Posted March 27 2006 - 12:31 AM

aaron,

realtime DD&DTS encoding is possible:
http://auzentech.com/

i got the mystique and it works flawlessly with nearly all games (at least the ones i play).

re: Dolby questions, couldn't someone just email dolby.com and ask them? =).

#19 of 45 OFFLINE   ChristopherDAC

ChristopherDAC

    Producer



  • 3,729 posts
  • Join Date: Feb 18 2004

Posted March 27 2006 - 03:18 PM

"Plus" is just an extension to the original AC-3 CODEC, and ought to be backwayd compatible — that is, the legacy AC-3 decoders whould just ignore the extension data, just as with Dolby EX; it wouldn't need re-coding unless the bitrate is just too high for the input to accept. "HD" is something else entirely, though, and in that case I would guess that the "core" is a plain 5.1 mix, to which the additional channels [if present] are either bolt-ons, or matrixed like the rear-center in dts 6.1 Discrete. This "core" mix can then be, if necessary, mixed with the system sound, and in any case real-time encoded to standard AC-3. That, anyway, is my impression from the quotes and the other technical information I've heard; I think the ATSC website has sufficient descriptive information on DD+ to be sure of that part. Since it's supposed to be applied to DTV broadcasts in future in place of standard DD, I'd guess that there are no backward-compatability problems within the usual bitrates.

#20 of 45 OFFLINE   PeterTHX

PeterTHX

    Screenwriter



  • 2,034 posts
  • Join Date: Dec 30 2002

Posted March 28 2006 - 08:19 PM

Well, as expected Dolby Plus is the standard codec, with Dolby TrueHD being used here & there. DTS much ado about nothing. I expect Blu-ray to follow suit, using PCM multi in place of Dolby TrueHD for some titles.