Dolby True-HD and DTS-HD

Discussion in 'Blu-ray and UHD' started by Chris Huber, Mar 8, 2006.

  1. Chris Huber

    Chris Huber Second Unit

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    I need to understand these... I've been to Dolby.com and dtsonline.com to review the technology.

    1. Will the Blu-Ray and HD-DVD players coming out soon support and output this? I am aware that the software(disc) must have this encoded too. When will they start encoding this on discs?

    2. Obviously, current receivers will be able to play new stuff in regular 5.1(DD EX, DTS-ES), since the new audio format will include the old on the datastream as well, right?

    3. When will we see new receivers that can decode Dolby TrueHD or DTS-HD? Will these be fake 7.1 (like the current) or will they be true 7.1(or at least a step up from PLIIx)?
     
  2. JediFonger

    JediFonger Producer

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    1. yes, both BR&HD-DVD support this in their spex. in fact, it's BECAUSE of BR&HD-DVD that DD-HD, TrueHD, DTS-HD are coming out. it's upto the studios when they'll start encoding.

    AFAIK, there's been no confirmation on whether the 3 new HD-DVDs (phantom of opera, last samurai and million dollar baby) will be authored with HD versions of their soundtrack. let's hope it is soon.

    2. well, here's what's gonna happen. the BR/HD-DVD player will transcode DD-HD, TrueHD, DTS-HD to DD&DTS formats that we now know. in fact, even the new Toshiba players coming out next week will decode the new surround formats but spit them out in existing/compatible formats. in the future when new a/v receivers come out decoding HD surround formats, you won't (supposedly) need any new equipment to enjoy HD surround formats.

    3. i've been asking the same question. with the player+software launch so close, i haven't seen/heard any a/v receiver mfr announcing anything. i'm hoping Denon's planning one real soon. i really hope they utilize HDMI connection to the max.
     
  3. Tim Vickroy

    Tim Vickroy Extra

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    I don't think Yi's reply is entirely accurate.

    First of all, I believe the answer to your first question is NO. The first wave of HD DVD & Blu-ray players will not support DD HD or DTS-HD.

    This is because these formats rely on HDMI 1.3 to be passed digitally to the receiver (earlier HDMI versions as well as optical & coaxial just don't have the bandwidth). HDMI 1.3 won't have a final spec until June / July.

    The first DVD players, receivers, etc. with HDMI 1.3 probably won't show up until early 2007.
     
  4. JediFonger

    JediFonger Producer

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    tim, have you been checking out Toshiba player spex? all HD-DVD&BluRay will support decoding HD sountracks. whether movie studios will choose the encode the discs with HD soundtracks remain to be seen. a spec is a spec is a spec. the firstwave of DVD players supported decoding Dolby Digital so users can hear it either using analog or coaxial toslink. that's why the consortium spec'd DD into DVD. likewise for the HD discs.

    all of what i wrote above will come independent of HDMI. whether HDMI spex pass the info or not is irrelevant. i believe the players output 7.1 using analog RCA plugs. so any a/v receivers can hear HD soundtracks if they accept analog inputs. i dunno whether they can pass HD sountracks through coaxial or toslink.
     
  5. Daryl Furkalo

    Daryl Furkalo Second Unit

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    The question is whether the players will decode the higher res audio on board or pass the signal via HDMI. Each manufacturer has a different answer on generation one.

    HDMI 1.3 will have the copy protection the studios feel they need, I don't think there is any technical limit on the data transfer with the previous versions of HDMI.
     
  6. Dave Moritz

    Dave Moritz Producer
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    I would not count on Denon offering any new surround hd decoding anytime soon. I emailed Denon and the only thing they would say is that there are no plans to offer DD+ & DTS-HD any time soon. In another email Denon said there will be no HD-DVD or Blu-ray will be offered until the format war is over.

    I had hoped that Denon would offer a Blu-ray HD player but that will not be happening for the forseeable future. So I will be looking to purchase ether a Sony or Pioneer Elite Blu-ray hd player.

    I however wonder how good the quality will be on the dd+ / dts-hd decoders built into the hd players? Will they be high quality capible of high end audio?
     
  7. Johnny G

    Johnny G Supporting Actor

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    The specs are out for the first 3 HD-DVD titles:-

    Million Dollar Baby

    Main Feature:
    1080P HD 16x9 2.40:1
    Dolby Digital-Plus: English 5.1 & French 5.1
    English, French and Spanish subtitles

    Extra Features:
    480i Standard Definition
    Stereo Sound
    James Lipton Takes on Three: Roundtable with Clint Eastwood, Hilary Swank, Morgan Freeman and Moderator James Lipton
    Born to Fight: A discussion with real-life boxer/actress Lucia Rijker
    Producers Round 15: Behind the Scenes
    Theatrical Trailer

    The Last Samurai

    Main Feature:
    1080P HD 16x9 2.40:1
    Dolby Digital-Plus: English 5.1, French 5.1, Spanish 2.0
    English, French and Spanish subtitles

    Extra Features:
    480i Standard Definition
    Stereo Sound
    Commentary by Edward Zwick
    Deleted Scenes
    Edward Zwick: Director's Video Journal
    History vs. Hollywood: The Last Samurai {History Channel Documentary)
    Tom Cruise: A Warrior's Journey
    Making an Epic: A Conversation with Edward Zwick
    A World of Detail: Production Design with Lilly Kilvert
    Silk and Armor: Costume Design with Ngila Dickson
    From Soldier to Samurai: The Weapons
    Japan Premieres
    Imperial Army Basic Training
    Theatrical Trailer

    The Phantom of the Opera

    Main Feature:
    1080P HD 16x9 2.40:1
    Dolby True HD: English 5.1
    Dolby Digital-Plus: English 5.1 & French 5.1
    English, French and Spanish subtitles

    Extra Features:
    480i Standard Definition
    Stereo Sound
    Behind the Mask: The story of The Phantom of the Opera
    The Making of The Phantom of the Opera in 3 Spellbinding Acts:
    Pre-Production
    The Director
    Production
    No One Would Listen: Additional Scene
    Singalong
    Theatrical Trailer
    __________________________________________________ __________

    So at least one of them has Dolby True HD and all have Dolby Digital-Plus or is that standard for HD?
     
  8. JediFonger

    JediFonger Producer

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    yeah DD+ is DD-HD (next gen HD codec from Dolby but still compressed). TrueHD is unique in the sense that it's supposed to be uncompressed like DVD-Audio. really high quality. thx for the spex =). so the disc will have the material. the toshiba players will be able to decode it and output via analog 7.1 rca plugs or will it pass those signals digitally over coaxial/toslink? anyone know?

    re: HDMI 1.3, i thought 1.3 only adds DVD-Audio&SACD and HDMI spex already passed DD+&truehd.
     
  9. Juan C

    Juan C Second Unit

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    The Toshiba 1st-gen players only decode 2-channel Dolby TrueHD.
     
  10. JediFonger

    JediFonger Producer

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  11. Greg T

    Greg T Stunt Coordinator

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    Of all the announced players from either format....only the PS3 will pass 5.1 or 7.1 DD Tru-HD multi channel via hdmi 1.3.
    Ironic that a game machine will do what no other hi res player will.

    Also, all or most, depending on which article you read, Sony/MGM titles will have multi channel(at least 5.1) uncompressed audio.

    And finally...no announced players have more than 5.1 analog outs.
     
  12. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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    "Main Feature:
    1080P HD 16x9 2.40:1
    Dolby True HD: English 5.1
    Dolby Digital-Plus: English 5.1 & French 5.1
    English, French and Spanish subtitles"


    Why both DD True HD *and* DD+ English 5.1? Isn't DD True HD enough since the player can transcode to legacy DD???

    Personally, I'm a little disappointed that only one of these HD DVD titles seems to be pushing for lossless audio compression. IMO, that is *the* next most important step-up with HD media after 1080P video...
     
  13. JediFonger

    JediFonger Producer

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    david, that was my point in DD5.1 downmix into DD2.0 as well =). think about it:

    have only ONE track: TrueHD 7.1 downmixes into DDEX (6.1), which can downmix into DD2.0!
     
  14. AaronMK

    AaronMK Supporting Actor

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    According to Dolby's website, DD+ is backwards compatible (will output a DD bitstream for current systems), but no similar capability is mentioned for TrueHD. Could you please cite your source for saying:


    It is one thing to be able to decode and output 5.1 over analog outputs, or to take a subset of a DD+ track. It is another thing to compress and encode a DD 5.1 bitsream in realtime.

    If TrueHD does not have backwards compatibility, the player would have to decode and then encode a standard DD bitstream on the fly. Are the HD players capable of on-the-fly DD 5.1 encoding, and doing a good job of it? I'd imagine if this were not an issue, they would not be including a backward compatible track along with the lossless track.
     
  15. Jeff(R)

    Jeff(R) Second Unit

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    This is what I found during a Google search.

    http://www.dolby.com/consumer/techno...HD_avrs_2.html

    "If your A/V receiver or processor has neither multichannel analog or digital inputs, but is equipped with 5.1-channel Dolby® Digital decoding and playback, you will still be able to enjoy 5.1-channel performance from next-generation optical players. Included within 7.1-channel multichannel Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD streams is a core 5.1 mix prepared by the content maker that is used when the player is set for 5.1-channel mode. After playback audio signals have been mixed in the player, the PCM signal can be encoded to a Dolby Digital signal and output from the player via S/PDIF (optical or coaxial) to your connected Dolby Digital A/V receiver or processor.

    In many instances, the audio quality you will experience from this connection may be better than what you would experience during playback of standard-definition DVD-Video discs, especially if the native signal on the disc is Dolby TrueHD or high-bit-rate Dolby Digital Plus. This is a direct result of a higher-quality source signal feeding a Dolby Digital encoder running at 640 kbps—higher than the maximum bit rate on DVD-Video."
     
  16. DaViD Boulet

    DaViD Boulet Lead Actor

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    Jeff,

    great post.

    This makes me wonder though:


    Sounds like Jeff's quote actually *confirms* that even though it uses the "core" terminology along the way.
     
  17. AaronMK

    AaronMK Supporting Actor

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    Jeff,

    Thank you for finding that. The next paragraph after you stopped quoting read:


    Unfortunately, that page raises as many questions as it answers. Does "core" refer to a pre-downmixed 5.1 in TrueHD or Plus track so the player does not have to "guess" at it, or a standard DD 5.1 track? If it is the latter, the player would not need an encoder since it would just extract and pass the standard bitstream. The optional onboard encoder would be nice for video overlays so both the soundtracks could be mixed instead of having to select one or the other.

    If both TrueHD and Plus have the same backwards compatibility, the only reason I can think of that they are including both on 'Phantom' is because the first generation Toshiba only supports 2ch TrueHD.
     
  18. JediFonger

    JediFonger Producer

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    aaron,

    realtime DD&DTS encoding is possible:
    http://auzentech.com/

    i got the mystique and it works flawlessly with nearly all games (at least the ones i play).

    re: Dolby questions, couldn't someone just email dolby.com and ask them? =).
     
  19. ChristopherDAC

    ChristopherDAC Producer

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    "Plus" is just an extension to the original AC-3 CODEC, and ought to be backwayd compatible — that is, the legacy AC-3 decoders whould just ignore the extension data, just as with Dolby EX; it wouldn't need re-coding unless the bitrate is just too high for the input to accept. "HD" is something else entirely, though, and in that case I would guess that the "core" is a plain 5.1 mix, to which the additional channels [if present] are either bolt-ons, or matrixed like the rear-center in dts 6.1 Discrete. This "core" mix can then be, if necessary, mixed with the system sound, and in any case real-time encoded to standard AC-3. That, anyway, is my impression from the quotes and the other technical information I've heard; I think the ATSC website has sufficient descriptive information on DD+ to be sure of that part. Since it's supposed to be applied to DTV broadcasts in future in place of standard DD, I'd guess that there are no backward-compatability problems within the usual bitrates.
     
  20. PeterTHX

    PeterTHX Cinematographer

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    Well, as expected Dolby Plus is the standard codec, with Dolby TrueHD being used here & there.

    DTS much ado about nothing.

    I expect Blu-ray to follow suit, using PCM multi in place of Dolby TrueHD for some titles.
     

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