PB-10 initial impressions (1 Viewer)

[steve nn]

The VTF-2 would vibrate things in the room (and the next one too), but I didn't really feel it the way I do with the PB-10.
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Very understandable. In a room your size, if you ever do decide to upgrade down the road? (what-ever model) You'll really notice the presence of feel. As good as the PB10-ISD is for the $$, it cant be expected to provide what one-dual 12" dB drivers - TV-12 Ultra's or the VTF-3 MkII.

Teaser

 

[paul clipsel]

I doubt outside the threshold of human listening frequency is a priority for directors intent on movies because their reference playback of movies are commercial theaters, and even the most common subwoofers they use in theaters are at best rated at 22 Hz - 500 Hz (-10 dB).
http://www.jblpro.com/cinema/subwoofers.htm

If you look at even the best theaters, playing back the biggest special effects epics, they seem to aim for dynamics in the above 30Hz range. A flat frequency response and high spl to 30Hz would seem to be the target for directors who know their premium audience is watching their first run movie playback the local theater.

PC

 

[Rory Buszka]

Whether it's a slap-in-the-face difference doesn't make that much of a difference because even if the PB10-ISD was only marginally better than the VTF-2 MKII, it would still be a big enough difference that people looking to wring the last tiny bit out of their bass dollar would still go with the SVS PB10-ISD when buying a new sub.

 

[CurtisSC]

Well....remember, John was actually comparing it to the older VTF-2, and not the VTF-2MK2.....and there is also the matter of subjective preferences.

 

[frank manrique]

quote:

Hehe. The PB-10 will do for now, but it's going to take another SVS or something like a VTF-3 MkII for me to consider it an upgrade
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Oh, come on, John...live a little and do what I've done: upgrade to twin B4-Plus subs (or whatever they're called now days)!...

-THTS

"...hi, my name is Frank...and am an SVS bassaholic..."

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Of course.

 

[Mark Seaton]

I would like to add a few points of consideration here.

First, just because most subwoofers in movie theaters don't do much below 30-35Hz doesn't mean they wouldn't like to get lower and louder. Secondly, it requires some significant output to fill a large cinema with powerful bass.

There are most certainly ways to deliver high power to or below 30Hz, but there is another MAJOR problem with big bass in a cinema. Namely, the screen on the other side of the wall, next door. While many have used our 15 year old BassTech-7s for premiers and special events, they rarely made it into permanent action because of the disruption to the adjacent theaters. I know I have been doing a lot of experimenting and modeling to work on multi-sub setups using bass horns to gain directivity parallel to the screen wall which would at least enable installation in "bowling alley" type setups. If it was a priority, it certainly would be possible to deliver 16-25Hz output in a cinema. No, it's not easy nor readily available, but possible. The more difficult issue is figuring out how to have adjacent cinemas co-exist.

Finally, modern soundtracks are commonly re-mastered to DVD. How much adjustment is made varies from movie to movie, but they don't just dump the soundtrack directly to DVD. I do suspect one problem lies in the fact that consumer or pro products are used for mastering which have protective features or have significant compression at high levels. As such, the subwoofers in use won't communicate the relative level of the sub 20Hz range, which might inadvertently be boosted when higher frequency content is shelved up. The existence of content well below 20Hz is real. The spectral content is most certainly monitored by the microphones and recorded. At the same time, it has become more common to strictly protect consumer subwoofers. The benefit is that now soundtracks are more likely to allow ultra-low frequency energy through, and those subwoofers which can really produce those frequencies can do so. Likewise, consumers love to believe specifications to be law. Just because a subwoofer can do 20Hz at some level, doesn't mean it can dilver uncompressed 20Hz playback at any level.

My 2c...

 

[CurtisSC]

I don't think anyone is arguing the fact that material below 20hz exists in the movies.

The questions I have are "how much?" and does it change one's thought of the movie from an artistic point of view?

 

[kevin tate]

I thought human's hearing range is 20 hz and above. Can we even hear sub 20 hz bass?

 

[Jack Gilvey]

I imagine the answer would be different for everyone. It's best to have the intent as encoded on the disc edited as little as possible by your equipment, though...no? One can come up with lots of reasons why a sub doesn't "need" to go that low...but who would argue that it's "better" to have 25Hz extension rather than 20Hz, all else being equal?

 

[John Garcia]

You can't generally hear below 20Hz, but below that it has little to do with hearing as much as feeling. Your ears and body still percieve the pressurization. My buddy's sub is tuned to 17.5Hz and when he plays a tone at that frequency, everything just vibrates, but you don't hear much sound. That infrasonic vibration adds to the "feel" of the bass that makes it so entertaining to many. This is the tactile component that I am talking about with the PB-10.

I think more and more DVDs are being mastered with this extremely low content as HTs, and DECENT HTs, become far more common.

 

[John Garcia]

Almost forgot, I also have a bunch of pics. Let me see if I can put up one:

>see below for link

 

[Edward J M]

The audibility of a given frequency is not an absolute - it's threshold dependent. Check some of Keith Yates' work in the Ultimate Guide to AV Subwoofer shoot-outs. He shows the audibility threshold on his FR charts, varying from 30 Hz right down to 15 Hz.

All of his high level (100-115 dB) FR sweeps on the ContraBass (for example) were above the hearing threshold, even at 15 Hz.

http://www.ultimateavmag.com/feature...ay/index3.html

 

[Mark Seaton]

The threshold of audibility is for a pure tone, and is in fact a curve, not a brick wall. If you get ~5Hz to some crazy level like I believe 130dB (recalling what Tom Danley has told me - he has actually created such levels outside) it is audible as a tone. That is not to say we don't perceive it. There have been many studies on the effects of low frequency, and we have discussed it at great length here and on other forums as well.

Again, unless you have measured response during a scene or with test signals, you can't be sure that your system is reproducing even 25Hz as well as a much larger subwoofer. Look at the waterfall plots Keith Yates took in the review. While they don't tell the whole story, and are not in a room, they clearly show how the subwoofer reacts (or doesn't) to the input signal.

The best subjective description I can give is that with many subwoofers you are very much a spectator of ominous events like in the depth charge scene of U-571, during the battle scenes of Master & Commander, or when the monster surf is breaking in Blue Crush. When more uncompressed, deep bass energy is added, it is very noticable. Most commonly the description is that you are more on the edge of your seat, and you are further drawn into the event. Very low frequency content has a very real ability to get your attention, and that is typically exactly what the director intended when such sounds are present. On the less bombastic end of things, many movies use low frequency energy and rumbles to invoke a sense of tension to a scene. In general, digging deeper makes the same system, at the same SPL sound bigger, louder, and more lifelike. It is a nice benefit that it does so without presenting any more damaging sound levels to your ears vs. cranking up the main volume.

 

[John Garcia]

Speaking of level, I do notice that I am listening about -2 to -3 lower from my normal listening levels with the PB-10, meaning at the same level as before it seems to sound louder.

BTW: Frank, you ARE insane

 

[jephdood]

John, got those pics?

 

[John Garcia]

I only uploaded that one. The rest are on my camera at home. Will put some up this evening. Can you see the one I put up?

 

[CurtisSC]

That could have something to do with how the gain is set on the subs...right?

 

[kevin tate]

John, the link does not work.

 

[John Garcia]

It was at another membership forum, so non-members could not view. Should work now. I put it on Yahoo and made it public.


I threw in a few more movies and a lot of music last night. Scenes from LOTR:FOTR EE in DTS-ES, Nine Inch Nails All That Could Have Been, Diana Krall Live in Paris, Staind Unplugged, Eagles:HFO. I was happy with the sound on Live in Paris. Not quite as plucky with the bass as the VTF-2 but just as clean, if not cleaner, with percussion. With some fast, bassy techno, it kept up well too.