Nice article on some highly touted subs. (1 Viewer)

[AjayM]

Again, I'm very surprised that you would even question this, coming from someone that built a DIY Tempest subwoofer.You are talking about the subjective sound quality.I'm not telling you this because I'm bored, or because its fun to mock these subwoofers.I am telling you this because its something that can be verified and measured.

Good, provide the specs you mentioned, then we can all talk about how good/bad these subs are. If we can't use something like sound quality to judge them (it being subjective and all), I guess we have to use the specs. Just let me know where I can find the full specs of the MRS, like group delay and all those other good specs and we can talk.

Andrew

 

[Lewis Besze]

Just let me know where I can find the full specs of the MRS, like group delay and all those other good specs and we can talk.

That just it, most manufacturers don't provide any meaningful data for comparison,only marketing BS!
Andrew which these expensive subs you heard?
Nobody said that those subs are "breaking" the law of physics,though the Rel's claim of 11hz extension would be as such,but since they don't provide any info on that my as well just disregard it.
Regarding Objective measured data,it "tells" a lot about the subs performance,the only thing is variable here is the romm where you audition it,and it's position in that room.
So even if you heard a sub at the dealers room,it could very well perform "differently" in yours.So in the absence of audition[preferably in your home] comparing measured data[not specs],is the next best thing,when it comes to subs.Electronics don't fall into this chategory,as they sound the same in every room,provided there is no power sag or something similar anomoly.

 

[AjayM]

Electronics don't fall into this chategory,as they sound the same in every room,provided there is no power sag or something similar anomoly.

Ok, again, sort of true. But I can't listen to electronics without hooking them up to speaker which interact with the room they are in.

Look, I'm not knocking DIY subs, I'm not knocking any subs. My point is that it's really hard to judge these subs without having ever listened to them. Bench racing with a bunch of specs gathered from everything other than actual real measurements just doesn't mean anything either, as you have pointed out we don't have the specs for these super-subs and we don't really have specs for a top of the line DIY setup either. I've heard the MRS and it sounds REALLY good, it can play REALLY loud and also be VERY clean and there is a sound quality difference between it and a mid/high end (but not top of the line) Velodyne in the same room. And I can't help think back to the point Mike Knapp always brings up, and that is the issue with cost. What would people be saying if the MRS cost $2,000? Or the Wilson XS $1,000? Would it just be some under-performing toy for the rich, or would they be super-subs then?

Andrew

 

[Lewis Besze]

What would people be saying if the MRS cost $2,000? Or the Wilson XS $1,000? Would it just be some under-performing toy for the rich, or would they be super-subs then?

No, I would call them a "good value" in retail level.

 

[AjayM]

On a contrary this is why one should experiment with a DIY sub, next to other reasons.

DIY offers a HUGE disadvantage in this regard. Because I could spend a small mint on equipment and not like the results. Sure I can send back the driver (most of the time), the amp. But I've just invested a lot of time into building this thing that I can't get back. So the customer is taking a chance there. I still remember the first time I built a DIY speaker system, I had all sorts of fears going through my mind playing the "what if" game (what if I don't like them, what if I screw something up, what if...).

Andrew

 

[Lewis Besze]

I still remember the first time I built a DIY speaker system, I had all sorts of fears going through my mind playing the "what if" game (what if I don't like them, what if I screw something up, what if...).

It's not for everyone to do,but others can do the job for "you",and still enjoy the benefits of the savings,and increased performance ratio over commercial designs.Not to mention the endless custom looks and possibilities,that these companies simply don't offer.

 

[Vaughan Odendaal]

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Again, have you heard a Wilson XS? How do you know if you can beat it or not without ever having heard it






No, I have not heard the XS.The design is not magic.Remember Hoffmans Law? I can use a smaller enclosure(with more efficent port size than the measly twin 7" ports of the XS), with better high excursion drivers and achieve similiar or greater results.The XS uses the 1808 driver.This driver has around 3.5 L of linear displacement.No XBL^2.The AV15 has 3.8 L of linear displacement, and the Tumult has 5.1 L together with XBL^2.Smaller enclosure, far better drivers and more efficient port sizes(8" as a minimum).Physics is still physics.


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Will you be able to build a completely inert cabinet in your garage?






I could.That doesn't mean that I'm going to build one straight away.2" Marine grade plywood with extensive bracing will have the same rigidity.


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I must have misread this thread where people were pointing out how the MRS is using less than top of the line TC Sounds woofers, or the Wilson XS is using really old Aurasound drivers.






You definitely misread.No-one said that the driver alone would ensure better performance.The Tumult in a small cube isn't going to provide its full linear excursion capabilities.We did point out the use of less than stellar drivers though.


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Again, you said it right there with "better braced enclosure", can you build an inert cabinet in your garage, or more to the point, can the "average" DIY'er do that? I'm sure we all could, but would it be practical






And I'll reiterate.I could build a better braced enclosure(for a given size).I'm not going to prove this point by building the enclosure for your enjoyment. No, the average DIY'er probably can't do this.Perhaps they can.How do you define "average"?


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I'm sure we all could, but would it be practical?






No, it wouldn't be practical.But any design that would outperform these cost-no-object designs are bound to be impractical to some degree or another.The relevance???


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does the DIY compromise at that point?






Everything has compromises.DIY designs have less compromises than commercial designs.Simple.


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You have more time? How much time did you do real R&D work on your DIY subwoofer? Me? I entered all the TS specs into some software, fiddled with a few things and then built a box, finished it and I was done. Start to finish time was basically a weekend.





Thats you, not me.You may take one weekend, and I can take months.I don't worry about labor.Manafactures have a certain deadline to finish a product.I can take time to modify or change any design parimeters that I choose.So what if you took a weekend? Others here take more than 2-3 weeks on big designs.Some here take a single day to complete a subwoofer.Thats their prerogative.I can take 3-4 months, and build a monster subwoofer with a great finish.I'm speaking hypothetically of course.Its all about priorities.


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And the point of "average" drivers is ridiculous, how old are some of these designs? The Wilson XS has been around for a long time, at the time the Aurasound driver probably was the best 18" driver (and let's face it, there aren't many 18" drivers out there even today).






Thats just it, we are comparing old subwoofers.Thats not my problem.Thats Wilson or Krells problem.The Aurasound 1808 driver probably were the best drivers in its time, but now they seem rather mediocre in comparison to other high performance drivers.Why would they use these drivers in todays world? Perhaps stupidity.

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Do you honestly think that these manufactures, knowing they were making a "cost no object" level sub balked at paying an extra $50-100 for better drivers?






No.I don't think as you think.The drivers in the Krell cannot be bought, as far as I can tell.Those drivers used to cost in the region of $400-500 each.Keyword "used".You can purchase the top of the line Aurasound drivers that are close to twice the performance of the 1808 drivers for around $800-900 each.The whole point is that these "cost no object" designs use relatively sub-par drivers, IMHO.Thats what I honestly think.


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But the cost of the drivers is a very small part of the costs on these super-subs.






Exactly.R&D, time and labor all adds up.The Krell probably costed around $5k to build.Add in a $20k Krell Master Reference amplifier, and the time and labor, and you end up with a cool $28k+ pricetag.


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This was posted by John from Stryke about the Wilson XS in another thread here;






John made a mistake.He confused the Seismic 8196 woofers with the 1808 drivers.The XS uses the 1808 driver.It has no XBL^2 at all.It has a VD of around 3.5 L.The 8196 are some of the best drivers in the world.A member on these forums(ChrisA) built the Blackholes using the 8196 drivers.He even thought that the 1808 featured in the XS was quite pathetic in comparison, which is why he chose the 8196 drivers.


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What about those "Average" drivers?






Refuted already.

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Most DIY designs I see build rather standard enclosures, that weigh maybe 100lbs or so (give or take a little), I have yet to see a DIY'er build a 400lb enclosure that is "small" like the MRS. Going back to the physics/science thing you keep mentioning, if two things are the same size, yet one weighs more that means it would be more dense. In these terms it would be a safe assumption to assume that it will also be more inert as well.






You haven't seen enough I'm afraid.ChrisA's enclosures weigh around 400 pounds.The Krell MSR enclosure IS small.It uses 1" thick alumimum, which is why it weights the odd 400 pounds.Just because the Krell uses aluminum, doesn't mean that you cannot build an inert enclosure of the same strength with MDF/Marine grade plywood.


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All of those are available to the manufacture in a much easier sense than for the DIY'er.






That might be true.But that doesn't change the fact, that drivers readily available for the DIY'er are still head and shoulders above what any commercial design has used.If they had such resources, then they would use these drivers, or even better(as you describe).However, this hasn't been proven to be true, so I'll conclude that drivers for DIY'ers are superior to what Krell/Wilson/ML etc. can up with.They might be able to get the same, but they haven't.Wonder why that is?


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Again, sorry...I'm not a "spec buyer", I actually include sound quality in my decision of what makes a good speaker.






I never spoke of sound quality.I also hold sound quality to the utmost respect.I don't know why there has to be such obfuscation regarding the operation of these super extensive subwoofers.They aren't magic, and they shouldn't be regarded as being unbeatable.


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Ok, tell me the frequency response, group delay, distortion figures of the Krell MRS and Wilson XS.






Perhaps you can provide me with the necessary information.


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Good, provide the specs you mentioned, then we can all talk about how good/bad these subs are. If we can't use something like sound quality to judge them (it being subjective and all), I guess we have to use the specs. Just let me know where I can find the full specs of the MRS, like group delay and all those other good specs and we can talk.






You seem confused.I never questioned these "uber" subwoofers ability to sound good.I think that they all sound wonderful.I said that you can determine what the sound quality is like, with the necessary information.If this information is not provided, then what can I determine?

Regards

 

[AjayM]

You seem confused.I never questioned these "uber" subwoofers ability to sound good.I think that they all sound wonderful.I said that you can determine what the sound quality is like, with the necessary information.If this information is not provided, then what can I determine?

That the number of people who have heard the subs that all say they are above and beyond the "norm" may actually have heard something that sounds good. That is cleary above the rest, that while independent measurements havent' been taken but the manufactures claims seem very plausible? But that's just me...

Andrew

 

[FrantzM]

I am coming quite late in this most instructive discussion. I am slowly getting to speed on subwoofers. It is my opinion that real Hi-Fi means full range. It seems interestingly enough that Subwoofer technology is quite straightforward.
This said. I believe that without much efforts it is possible these days, to build an incredible sub that would ON-PAPER surpass these uber subwoofer at a fraction of the price.

12 stryke AV 15............... $3,600
Pro Amp for these 4 Kwatts... $2,000? may be less
Behringer BFD (Too cheap to count)
Contractor to do the work.....$3000
Less than $10,000.
If you want at all cost to spend more money you may replace the AV-15 by Seismic 8196 drivers for even more displacement, then you will match the price of the Wilson XS
My point is that anyone able to spend $28,000 is as well able to have an IB built for much less. I would add a TacT Room Correction system to the price list at $5,000 and use it only in the bass for tease, then I would be close to the Krell at $28,000 but it may cost me more since I would certainly have to reinforce the house structures

When it comes to bass IB if possible, seems to be the ideal solution:
Massive everything.
No box coloration (No Box , no port, no PR)
Extremely low distortion afforded by the multiplicity of drivers,
SPL that can induce Inopportune bodily functions or just be dangerous to your hearing even at sub 20 Hz frequencies

You name it they have it. Their biggest drawbacks seems to be their immobility.

Frantz
Port-au-Prince, Haiti