My 2 cents worth on “Brothers Grimm” (1 Viewer)

[haineshisway]

I was hoping friend Dave would finally chime in because he is where I got my information and I knew he had it right. I doubt Warners will give anything to him to do, which is a shame in a way, but the budget if he did would still be substantial. But I have learned with Warners that you can't second guess anything.

 

[Matt Hough]

Thank you so much, David, for that intricate and illuminating survey on the elements available and the difficulty in potentially dealing with them should the powers-that-be give it a go. Sounds daunting but not impossible and gives us fans of the film some small reason to hope something might be done with the film at some future date (though I might not be alive to see it happen).

 

[warnerbro]

I remember seeing this in a theatre as a boy in the 70s. It was a reissue and I can remember it was badly faded then with a pinkish brownish look. Since the negatives are water-damaged, maybe they could find some kind of print still in existence and do their best on it -- please just preserve it for future generations and let us have a decent HD version.

 

[Robert Harris]

The Grim truth about “Brothers Grimm”

The ownership and copyright of both dramatic Cinerama titles “HTWWW” and “Brothers Grimm” is shared 50-50 between (formally MGM) now Warner Bros. and Cinerama Inc. As part of the major Cinerama revival efforts done starting in 2000 I have had first hand knowledge of the condition of all the Cinerama elements which include “Brothers Grimm” even though it has been vaulted at Warners. At that time I represented the 50% owner of the title, Gunther Jung, also of Cinerama Inc. and John Sittig, Director of Cinerama Inc. and myself along with Warner’s Dick May, now retired, did several photo chemical tests at Crest labs in 2002 of the water damaged sections and the availability and condition of the o-neg elements. I had received a copy thru Dick of the 1995 o-negative inspection reports where multiple problems such as this damage was listed. A little less than half of the rolls had notations of moderate to severe water damage due to a flood in one of the vaults years earlier. We did print up one small 300 foot section of a water damaged panel and found that the damage was mostly on the left edge, but other rolls could be on different sides. We also found there were a few rolls of missing o-negatives, but we never got around to checking on the YCM separation masters to see if they were complete or not. We had found earlier that the Cinerama travelogues did not all have complete sep. masters so perhaps Grimm has them complete?

Assuming the sep masters are complete then yes a restoration could be accomplished on “Grimm” however just imagine the expense of 9 B&W film frame elements (Y-C-M x3) to create 1 Cinerama 3-panel frame on the screen. Then if there is any shrinkage problems of the Y-C-M elements (as in misregistration) you would have one huge budget problem or the most expensive restoration/scanning job ever to end up with digital elements such as we have done with the travelogues.

On our Cinerama travelogue restorations we were fortunate to have the Library of Congress 3-panel deposit Eastmancolor faded prints available to scan our missing sections and then rebuild back the color, however as I understand it from my pals at LOC there is no 3-panel 6-perf IB prints of “Grimm” on deposit which could possibly fill in any missing and damaged areas. They only have the 35mm scope general release version.

Is “Brothers Grimm” digitally restorable? I would say the answer is possibly but a very hesitant yes. However it should be understood that it might not look as pristine as “HTWWW”. FYI -the o-negs on “HTWWW” were in excellent condition when we started printing up the answer print at Crest labs back in 2001. Warner Brother’s digital transfer work was started in 2006 from this same element for the blue ray release in the fall of 2008. This neg did not need very much clean up or digital restoration work. Blending the 3-panels back together again was a major part of that work.

The reason I say possibly yes is that after our “Windjammer” Cinemiracle experience - dealing with such severe damage, shrinkage, fading, dirt, chemical blotches, warpage, missing panels vinegar syndrome and even entire rolls missing, nothing can ever scare me again. “Windjammer” turned out better than we could ever have imagined.

In a nutshell -this is how I would approach “Grimm” without a 1.5+ mil budget: For starters carefully scan the Bradford UK IB tech 3-panel Cinerama 6 perf. print as well as some IB Tech 6 perf. elements we have recently located in Sweden. Then add in what is still usable of the o-negs favoring them where possible. In areas that simply cannot be saved then go from the YCM seps. Perhaps as a last resort, for troubled areas, use the 65mm IP, an optical created from the 3-panels at Metrocolor labs in the 1960s, this apparently has no cropping on the sides. If that element is used then attempt some better panel blending tricks on the optical printer join areas.

Then a very slow and difficult 3-panel blending operation, clean up, dust busting and flicker removal. Finally the blending (color and density etc.) of the various composite 3-panel source materials to facilitate in minimizing the “checkerboard” look of these different elements. Thus make it as close as possible to appear like it’s all from one basic source. A challenge for sure!

A number of years ago, I came upon a number of dye transfer rolls in an LA vault, possibly sitting around to be used as fill.

 

[RolandL]

 

[Brian Kidd]

I've given up on ever seeing Grimm in anything higher quality than the laserdisc. TCM has aired a transfer that, from what I understand, is marginally better than the LD, but any captures I've seen of it were compressed so badly that it wasn't worth watching. I finally bought a copy of the LD last year so that I could finally see it. It's certainly not a great film. There are some really nice moments and I'll watch George Pal animation or Russ Tamblyn dance any day, but I can see why saving it isn't a high priority for WB. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't purchase a BD of it day one, should a miracle occur and a digital restoration take place. My kids roll their eyes at me when I watch the Cinerama docs or HTWWW, but I don't care. Seeing Cinerama for myself back in the 90's, even with scratchy, sometimes badly-faded prints, was a shock to the system and made me a fan for life. People who think that modern, faux-Imax is the height of cinematic experience have no idea how wrong they are.

 

[RolandL]

The Japanese laser disc is the same as the TCM broadcast. The other laser disc is missing the picture for the prologue, missing picture info on the sides, overture and intermission music.

 

[Ethan Riley]

I'm not understanding--was this filmed in separate versions like "Oklahoma?" Is there a regular 35mm version

 

[Matt Hough]

Not a separately filmed version, but a 35mm print from the large format elements for use in regular theaters after the roadshow Cinerama engagements ended.

 

[DP 70]

I have seen a 35mm print and none of the panels matched it looked really bad plus it only a mono optical track.
Check out the original DVD

 

[DP 70]

Sorry i got my Cinerama films mixed the above post is about How the West Was Won.

it must be the heat

 

[Matt Hough]

Sorry i got my Cinerama films mixed the above post is about How the West Was Won.

it must be the heat

I knew you must have because there was no DVD release for The Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm.

 

[bestactor]

As a kid WWOTBG and HTWWW were extremely dear to me and I relived them in the soundtrack LPs. I loved them both so much I would "marry" them. WWOTBG has such an international flavor with locations and an incredible cast of great character actors. I sure wanted a father like Laurence Harvey! I saw it a number of times when MGM ran the family classic movies in weekend theater matinee showings. I know the cost of restoring is considerable, but I think there is much worth while in bringing it back to more of what it was. The TCM print is at least the complete original road show version, as far as I can tell.

 

[RolandL]

I'm not understanding--was this filmed in separate versions like "Oklahoma?" Is there a regular 35mm version

More info on Cinerama and Grimm

 

[William Moore]

The Grim truth about “Brothers Grimm”

The ownership and copyright of both dramatic Cinerama titles “HTWWW” and “Brothers Grimm” is shared 50-50 between (formally MGM) now Warner Bros. and Cinerama Inc. As part of the major Cinerama revival efforts done starting in 2000 I have had first hand knowledge of the condition of all the Cinerama elements which include “Brothers Grimm” even though it has been vaulted at Warners. At that time I represented the 50% owner of the title, Gunther Jung, also of Cinerama Inc. and John Sittig, Director of Cinerama Inc. and myself along with Warner’s Dick May, now retired, did several photo chemical tests at Crest labs in 2002 of the water damaged sections and the availability and condition of the o-neg elements. I had received a copy thru Dick of the 1995 o-negative inspection reports where multiple problems such as this damage was listed. A little less than half of the rolls had notations of moderate to severe water damage due to a flood in one of the vaults years earlier. We did print up one small 300 foot section of a water damaged panel and found that the damage was mostly on the left edge, but other rolls could be on different sides. We also found there were a few rolls of missing o-negatives, but we never got around to checking on the YCM separation masters to see if they were complete or not. We had found earlier that the Cinerama travelogues did not all have complete sep. masters so perhaps Grimm has them complete?

Assuming the sep masters are complete then yes a restoration could be accomplished on “Grimm” however just imagine the expense of 9 B&W film frame elements (Y-C-M x3) to create 1 Cinerama 3-panel frame on the screen. Then if there is any shrinkage problems of the Y-C-M elements (as in misregistration) you would have one huge budget problem or the most expensive restoration/scanning job ever to end up with digital elements such as we have done with the travelogues.

On our Cinerama travelogue restorations we were fortunate to have the Library of Congress 3-panel deposit Eastmancolor faded prints available to scan our missing sections and then rebuild back the color, however as I understand it from my pals at LOC there is no 3-panel 6-perf IB prints of “Grimm” on deposit which could possibly fill in any missing and damaged areas. They only have the 35mm scope general release version.

Is “Brothers Grimm” digitally restorable? I would say the answer is possibly but a very hesitant yes. However it should be understood that it might not look as pristine as “HTWWW”. FYI -the o-negs on “HTWWW” were in excellent condition when we started printing up the answer print at Crest labs back in 2001. Warner Brother’s digital transfer work was started in 2006 from this same element for the blue ray release in the fall of 2008. This neg did not need very much clean up or digital restoration work. Blending the 3-panels back together again was a major part of that work.

The reason I say possibly yes is that after our “Windjammer” Cinemiracle experience - dealing with such severe damage, shrinkage, fading, dirt, chemical blotches, warpage, missing panels vinegar syndrome and even entire rolls missing, nothing can ever scare me again. “Windjammer” turned out better than we could ever have imagined.

In a nutshell -this is how I would approach “Grimm” without a 1.5+ mil budget: For starters carefully scan the Bradford UK IB tech 3-panel Cinerama 6 perf. print as well as some IB Tech 6 perf. elements we have recently located in Sweden. Then add in what is still usable of the o-negs favoring them where possible. In areas that simply cannot be saved then go from the YCM seps. Perhaps as a last resort, for troubled areas, use the 65mm IP, an optical created from the 3-panels at Metrocolor labs in the 1960s, this apparently has no cropping on the sides. If that element is used then attempt some better panel blending tricks on the optical printer join areas.

Then a very slow and difficult 3-panel blending operation, clean up, dust busting and flicker removal. Finally the blending (color and density etc.) of the various composite 3-panel source materials to facilitate in minimizing the “checkerboard” look of these different elements. Thus make it as close as possible to appear like it’s all from one basic source. A challenge for sure!

David: If anyone can restore this film, you can! Your restorations of all the other Cinerama releases were, without question, absolutely astounding. Anything would be an improvement over the laserdisc release, which I have, sans the opening scenes with Oscar Homolka. So is a lack of funds the big issue here? What if we mounted a letter-writing campaign to WB. Just tell us what we can do! Thanks and good luck if you should decide to proceed with this project. We're ALL here for you!

 

[William Moore]

Not in my opinion, especially considering Harvey's dual role.

I agree completely. Lawrence Harvey was wonderful and Karl Boehm was as well!

 

[William Moore]

08/24/62

08/24/62

08/29/62

10/01/62

Boy, do these ads bring back memories! I was working for the Uptown at the time during my senior year in high school. Some of the best years of my life and I considered it a great privilege to have worked at the Uptown Cinerama!

 

[Dee Zee]

I saw this film as kid in 1962, probably twice. Cinerama was immersive. And I saw How the West as well. Loved them both back then. I most def would buy a restored Blu-ray. However I did buy the laserdisc back in the early 90s and the film did not play as well as I remembered. How the West on the other hand I still love despite its dated nature.

But again I would shell out for a restored version.

 

[cinemiracle]

Not a separately filmed version, but a 35mm print from the large format elements for use in regular theaters after the roadshow Cinerama engagements ended.

I saw the cinerama version several times and we also screened the 35mm version where I worked. Did't look good in cinemascope after seeing it in cinerama.

 

[cinemiracle]

I knew you must have because there was no DVD release for The Wonderful World of the Brothers Grimm.

Was released on video however.