DVD Review HTF REVIEW: Lady and the Tramp--Highly Recommended if you please or don't please!!! (1 Viewer)

[DaViD Boulet]

Joe,

your ABSOLUTELY RIGHT that many films do not take full advantage, and as so are not properly presented, even on the DVD medium. The examples you raise (Camelot etc.) are important to discuss so that the studios aren't allowed to get away with such improper treatment of sound again and again.

I am 100% right there with you...and I decry the poor sound mixes on all of the examples you mentioned. I'm very much of the mindset that, in regards to auido, preserving the multi-channel original mix of these historic films should be the NUMBER ONE priority of a home-video medium and any "new" sound mix should be offered as an alternative to the already-included original.

If you read my review of the audio mixes on Lady and the Tramp, it should be clear that I very much share those values, and try to make the importance of historical sound mixes something that should be on-the-radar of the HT enthusiast...just like OAR and proper framing are "normal" causes for which HT enthusiasts rally...original sound mix presentations ought to warrant the same zeal and appreciation.

HOWEVER,

What in the world does that have to do with not wanting to buy The Sound of Music in 1080P HD?



If you mean to suggest that we ought to put pressure on the studios properly present their film library in HD...with their original audio mixes in tact...that I would agree. But to suggest that the move to HD is something to be critizied altogether becaue of occasional problems with DVD presentations? That was the "thread farting" I referred to.

It goes without saying that we all hope that the studios don't make the same sound-mix mistakes with HD software...and I'm doing my (small) part to see that they don't. But even *with* audio problems, I'd rather be watching an artifact-free 1080P picture!

And to be sure, with all the mistakes we've seen on DVD, there have also been some glorious disc productions that dotted every "i" and crossed every "t". I consider DVD to be a training-ground for mastering audio and video. Now that HD is here, practice time is over and it's time for the studios to perform. You can bet that more than ever, I'll be doing my job to review film presentation in on HD media in accordance with cinephile values of hi-fidelity video *and* audio presntation of our beloved films.

 

[Robert Harris]

To PatrickMD...

While newer productions should look superb in their new HD incarnations, some older films, which are generations down from original, may not be represented as well.

My plan is to replace as HD product is released those which makes the upgrade worthwhile, and either sell or give away the older product.

I'm actually less concerned about replacement than about the interim period over the next twelve months or so, where holding off may be the proper action for my library. I'm hopeful that dual system discs make an appearance which will make the concept moot.

To Joe Caps...

You're quite correct that we were forced to use the 6 track print master for MFL, which had been run some 120 times. However, it does appear that the 6 was probably derived from the 4. The problem with the 4 is missing units. While the 4 master and the 6 print master did not match sonically, there may be a possible digital fix which we did not have in 1994. All of the tracks were backed up on 24 track for archival preservation.

RAH

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Before this discussion wanders too far off into the existential fog of SD versus DVD versus buy now versus buy later...

I'd like to grab a hold of a concern that Joe Caps raised and relate it back to the Disney title at hand:

The importance of preserving the orignial audio mix/sound quality on home-video formats.

This little principle is all-too-often forgotten even by the loyal film lovers at HTF. We're all quick to pull out banners and march the OAR cause. But when Warner remixes the audio for Ben Hur (and destroys directional dialogue panning) or FOX releases a musical with stunning stereo tracks and only uses a later-generation mono mix-down master for the DVD...somehow it never seems to get quite the same attention.

I think I can safely say that most HT enthusiasts aren't too upset about the chance to buy their beloved classics in HD, but they WOULD BE APPAULED to have to buy them OVER AND OVER AGAIN on the HD format if the studio can't present them right the first time and keeps re-releasing in HD over and over with nominal improvments.

For instance, if FOX dared to use the horribly noise-gated auido mix on an HD version of Hello Dolly, it would be a complete and utter waste...and HT enthusiasts who knew how good the original audio really sounded would be forced to wait yet again or decide to upgrade for the improved picture and then hope for a future re-release with properly presented sound.

While many studios are struggling in this department (including some very well-regarded studios like Warner Brothers and FOX who "win some" and "lose some" all the time with DVD), I have to say that Disney has impressed me with a steadily-growing track-record of properly presented auido mixes in DVD.

In particular, the last few years of releases seem to have been produced under a clear philosophy at the Mouse of "preserving the historic original audio mix presentation" as a clearly defined goal. All "new" 5.1 mixes are offered only as an alternative to the orignal mix presentation. This is the way ALL studios should handle sound. With the disc real estate and bandwidth available on HD media, nothing less should be tolerated by the HT enthusiast crowd.

Lady and the Tramp does an oustanding job presenting the original 3.0 mix in superb fidelity. It is a joy to watch this film and listen to it as the original audio-mixing artists intended...to hear their pans, their choices, their effects just as they planned. The new mix is excellent as well, but purists should demand that original sound presentation be preserved on home-video media EVEN if they prefer to listen to a newer, updated mix (Rocky Horror).

Disney has done an admirable job, and IMO as a studio they've set the standard for how to go about presenting sound (Mary Poppins is the exception to the rule). I'd like to see other studios step up to the plate and adopt this same philosophy, and I'd like to see the HT enthusiast crowd at HFM make it mandatory that they do.

Don't just sit around until Fox screws up the audio on the next Affair to Remember HD disc or Warner yet-again denies you the chance to hear the glorious orignal mutli-channel mix on Ben-Hur. Don't let them do it. You *and* the films deserve the option to experience that original audio mix. Accept nothing less!!!

 

[DaViD Boulet]

I've started a new thread in the HD forum particular to the topic of the importance of proper audio presentation on HD media:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...hreadid=252099

 

[Joe Caps]

I wish the studios would give a listen.
If you follow my posts from when I first joined this forum, years ago, you will see a constant stream of complaints from me, iver and over, about the same films.
You mention Ben Hur. Warners did the right thing and remastered this last year and it, finally , looks great. but the sound is still the remix, not the original 1959 track !!!!
This is probably from a new hi def transfer, the very one we will get when Ben Hur comes to Hi Def discs.

 

[TravisR]

There's only one release (of the SE) which has both the 16x9 widescreen and pan and scan versions on disc one.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Yep.

BTW, I'm surprised by the relative silence surrounding this DVD release...I hope that after some HTFers get their hands on the disc that they fill this thread up with discussion!

-dave

 

[Mike Frezon]

I'll tell ya, David. One of the things that has me so surprised by this release is the deals that are available on this title! LatT is going to be relatively cheap in the pantheon of classic Disney animated fetures.

You can check out the Weekly RoundUp HERE to learn about prices as low as $14.99 at Circuit City...AND a deal to save $5 off the price of ANY Disney DVD at Best Buy (BB's LatT price is $16.99) with the pre-order of Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe. And, BB is giving away a plush toy on release day.

There should be a LOT of people picking this title up this week and adding on to your discussion in this thread!

I'm REALLY looking forward to seeing what the video transfer looks like. It sounds stunning. That...and, of course, the "Ladies in sports history and how they ‘trample’ their way to Victory" special feature!

 

[Arnie G]

I never picked up the older release so I'm really looking forward to this. I don't think I've ever seen this movie.

 

[ZackR]

David,

As always, thanks for another excellent review. As a huge classic Disney fan, I always look forward to your reviews. I have the original disc, but will definitely pick this one up tomorrow.

As to the whole "holding off" thing, I have found my purchases slowing lately, but I also have found that I own many of the films that I "must" own.

Once I get a new display that can display HD material (hopefully by the end of the year) I will look into the new HD software. I personally hope Blue Ray crushes HD-DVD and that the "war" is quick. I look forward to purchasing many of my favorites in High Def.

 

[Paul Hillenbrand]

Thanks, David for the review. I intend to pick this up tomorrow.


Quoting DaViD Boulet:
David, when comparing the 11/1999 DVD release with this one, did it have the "softness" you are referring to here?

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Yes...and even more. Of course, it was sourced from a 4x3 lbxed laserdisc-intended digital master produced well before transfers and mastering practices started to take better advantage of what 720 x 480 could do.

But yes, this new DVD is certainly no *less* sharp, and does exhibit even more real detail and clarity than the previous DVD version.

My only criticism was that I couldn't help but feel that the DVD medium could have delivered a little bit more given that the image looks a tad softer than what I expect from film-projected animation and that other DVDs I own are able to communiate more natural image detail as well. Hopefully when this hits blu-ray it will be reference-worthy in every regard, and certainly if the DVD is properly replicating the look of the film hampered only by the technical limits of our 720 x 480 DVD format I'd love to know. If anyone has a film print (even 16mm) of this film I'd love for them to compare and let us know about the sharpness/softness issue based on non-video media.

 

[Reagan]

Watched it last night, and I am very pleased with the everything about this release. It's everything I had hoped for. Totally worth the wait.

My family enjoyed it. My younger son (4 years), who was seeing it for the first time, had a number of interesting observations, including, "Wait, dogs can't talk."

I also enjoy the style and presentation of the restoration credits that have appeared since Bambi. Everything about these last three Platinums (Bambi, Cindy, and Lady) is so tasteful.

-Reagan

 

[Paul McElligott]

They can't..?

 

[Mike Frezon]

Somebody needs to have a little talk with that boy.

 

[DaViD Boulet]

Reagan, what did your son say when he saw Toy Story and Finding Nemo (where toys talk and fish talk)?

Is Lady and the Tramp different in his mind?

If so...that would be interesting because it would indicate that the hand-drawn animation is producing a different reaction for him...one in which the characters are more real...more perceived as real dogs.

Thoughts?

 

[Paul_Scott]

haven't sat down to watch it full way thru, but checking the transfer in several spots, i am disappointed at the softness in the transfer. Colors look spectacular, but i was really hoping to get a sharper image this time and in that regard there isn't much difference here between the non-anamorphic version.
I'm confused as to why so many are saying this could be Disney's best looking vintage transfer. Bambi, which i finally watched the other night, looks far superior to me in regards to detail, and the colors are almost as impressive- the only difference there being in the more natural palatte used with Bambi.
perhaps things will improve if/when i step up to a 720p pj and use an upconverting player- but since that is the exact system that DaViD has, it doesn't sound like that'll help much either.

good grief.

 

[Reagan]

He didn't say anything for those, but he was watching those movies before he was two. My guess is that he was half serious and half silly when he said it.

Another fun thing was when his brother started mixing up plot details between 101 Dalmations and Lady (it's been a couple of years since he had seen either): "I think some bad guys are going break in and steal Lady."

-Reagan

 

[Mark-P]

David, there's one little thing you didn't notice about the DEHT mix of the film. All the dialog has been mixed across the three front channels.

Generally I prefer the DEHT mixes of these releases (Mary Poppins being the exception because of the new foley) but while the dialog may sound fuller in the DEHT mix, it's too unfocused. The 3.0 mix nails the dialog down to the center channel (although this being a 50s mix I would have expected more directional dialog)

Listening to the other language tracks I discovered the French track dialog is also spread across the 3 front channels, but the Spanish track dialog is only in the center.

I also pulled out my old Limited Issue disc and found that the Dolby digital 5.0 mix on that disc had the dialog dedicated to the center channel too.

I don't know who's making these horrible decision at Disney, but this is the 3rd "Disney Enhanced Home Theater Mix" that they have screwed up (IMO). First Aladdin with the song vocals, then Mary Poppins with the new foley, and now this.

The 3.0 original mix will be the one I select when showing this movie in my home theater!

 

[MatthewA]

With Aladdin, are you talking about the rewritten song lyrics? That was way before the DEHT mix.


Really?