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DVD Review HTF REVIEW: Lady and the Tramp--Highly Recommended if you please or don't please!!! (1 Viewer)

Robert Harris

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Ron,

I believe you've not only hit the nail on the head, but have brought to the fore something that I've been considering a great deal lately.

Holding off with Standard Definition (SD) releases and waiting for High Definition (HD).

I've had a number of discussions with people in various economic situations, and while many who can easily afford an HD or BR DVD equipment upgrade will be the early adopters of the format, it is those for whom a thousand dollar plus piece of equipment will force them to hold off.

Now with hardware manufacturers already offerering HD players at under $500, the spread here may well begin to dissolve.

If by mid-year we're seeing hardware at the $3-500 level for an HD player, the new format may be getting the attention of quite a few people who would normally have put off the purchase.

As one of those people who literally has a place waiting for HD players, this is quite positive, as it will also spur on the release of more HD software.

And David, thanks again for the high level of your review and the time that went into preparation.

RAH
 

DaViD Boulet

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I've also frozen all standard-def DVD purchases except for *extreme* cases where I *need* to own now (Ben Hur).

Everything else...Batman Returns...King Kong...War of the Worlds (new)...Harry Potter...EVERY purchase is being put on hold for HD.

Why? Because I'm not rich (far from it) and I can't afford to keep investing in software that I *know* I'll turn right around and want to purchase in "real" form on 1080P HD disc. (One recent purchase that was exempt was a South Park series...because that's hard-coded NTSC and buying on Blu-ray wouldn't offer any key upgrade advantage.)

Of course, for me personally that means Blu-ray, because even if the initial player prices are a tad higher than HD DVD the *format* has more potential to do things right so I'm going to do everything I can to support it (and foil Microsoft's attempt to confuse the marketplace with their HD-DVD aliance)...but the model still holds true: wait for HD.

In any event, while we're at the crossroads it takes an "extreme" case of standard-definition to push me over the edge. In fact, I'm *selling* much of my standard-def collection to try to pay for my first-generation Blu-ray player!!!

Sound of Music? Oaklahoma? I'm waiting for Blu-ray!

:D
 

PaulP

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If I understand it right, 1080p won't be supported by the first wave of players and discs. So you might be waiting for King King in 1080p for a while...
 

DaViD Boulet

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All Blu-ray and HD DVD discs (mastered from 24 fps film) will be encoded in native 1080 24P whether MPEG2 or VC1.

First-gen HD DVD players are currently speced to output 1080I maximum via HDMI.

First-gen Blu-ray players (including PS3) will output up to 1080P via HDMI.
 

Joseph Bolus

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David:

Thanks for the review! I own that first "Lady and the Tramp" DVD and, as we all know, it was presented in 2.35:1 non-anamorphic widescreen, with *no* extras. Still ... I've been happy to have it in my collection all these years as it's made the wait for this DVD much more tolerable.

As far as waiting for the Blu-ray iteration: No way!! Look: I'm a collector; and as such, I accept the fact that I'll be purchasing certain movies over again. If it's a movie I really love, it's just not a problem to re-purchase the movie (especially at these prices) as long as the presentation is markedly better.

And what's really nice about both Blu-ray and HD-DVD is that both of those formats will still support all of our "soon-to-be-legacy" DVD discs. Five years from now I could still be enjoying this same "Lady and the Tramp" DVD on my new Blu-ray deck. At that point it will make the wait for the Blu-ray version more tolerable; just as that first non-anamorphic disc made the wait for this disc tolerable.

Anyway, that's the way I see it!
 

DaViD Boulet

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:emoji_thumbsup:

Joseph,

what a great job expressing an excellent point of view. You're absolutely right...heck...many of us have owned these films on VHS, laserdisc, and DVD in multiple incarnations already. In that sense there's nothing "new" about the move to HD discs. In fact, as you suggest, since our HD decks will *play* our SD DVDs...and I should add will also upconvert them to 1080P for an improved picture over what you see now...in a way the move to HD is friendlier than ever...and makes the best possible use of your investment in SD DVD software as you, the collector, gradually upgrade to HD copies of your choice titles.

Thanks for sharing!
 

Neil Joseph

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Great review. I really could not wait to get this and after reading this, it only makes me want it more.
 

MikeGale

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I'm with Joseph on this issue as well -- if you want the movie, buy it now so you can enjoy it now. I'm a recovering "early adapter," still in pain after chucking all my old Beta Tapes in the trash, and praying that my Laser Disc player doesn't crap out. With the Playstation 3 now delayed for possibly another year, I think the jury's still out on which HD format will prevail. As one of the many annoyed consumers who will refuse to buy an HD player until there is only one format, I'll enjoy my movies on standard NTSC DVDs until...or if...an HD format really takes off. Meanwhile, thanks for another excellent review, David -- your thoroughness in analyzing the sound quality is greatly appreciated.
 

Malcolm R

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Same here. I don't see HD being a mainstream format (read "affordable") for a very long time, if ever. I expect HD will be a niche format much like laserdisc. I also imagine that most people will be very content to watch their standard DVD's for years to come, given that they already look darn good to the average viewer.

After just making the upgrade to DVD in the past 3-5 years, the bulk of the public will be highly resistant to having to purchase all new HD equipment and video software again in such a short cycle.
 

Lars Vermundsberget

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This is so true that it isn't even fun. :rolleyes:

But I forgive you. :)

Good review and a good read, even. You'd have talked me into buying this DVD if I were really in doubt in the first place.

I may or may not buy into a better format within the next few years. Either way, my intention is not to replace everything I've got. I've still got my laserdiscs. I prefer to spend (most of) my "DVD money" on titles that I haven't got already. I'll replace or add improved versions of certain favourites.

I haven't got the previous LatT DVD - my last purchase of this title was the 1998 (?) laserdisc.
 

Colin Jacobson

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I agree with this. For the most part, I see HD-DVD as similar to high-res audio formats like DVD-Audio and SACD. Audiophiles like them but the general public couldn't care less.

However, I think there's more room for growth for HD-DVD because people are buying widescreen TVs. Few people have audio systems good enough to tell the difference between standard CD and high-res, but the improvements in TVs will demonstrate superior DVD formats better. People will get used to high-def broadcasts and want that from their DVDs.

Maybe. I think HD-DVD has a difficult road to gain broad consumer acceptance, but it may happen. It just ain't gonna be for quite a while - if ever...
 

Joe Caps

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I have been through all of the formats beginning with Beta, VHS, RCA CED Discs, Laser and now dvd.
I really am sick about spending a lifetime hearing about the same movies over and over. I dread high def discs of anykind coming in, because it will be endless threads AGAIN !!, about the new improved James bonds, Aliens, Star wars, any and all King kongs, Lord of the Rings, yatata yatata yatata - over and over into eternity. Then more casablancas, fantasia, Wizard of Oz, Gone withthe Wind, Ben Hur -
 

PatrickMD

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Mr. Harris,
I too have been thinking a lot lately (as everybody here has) about whether or not I will hold off on buying SD in favor of waiting for HD, so I thank you for your insightful comments about how you personally feel about it.

The bigger question (to me) is what to do with the DVD's we already own. As a casual movie fan, I know I'll be more than happy with what I have and will be using my money on movies I don't already own, but as somebody who cares deeply about image quality I was wondering if you could share with us what you plan to do with the titles you have in your collection...

Thanks!
Patrick
 

PeterTHX

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Are you the real Joe C?
I would think the REAL Joe C, a fan of films, would welcome something that brings the theatrical experience home more accurately than ever. Someone who would know that no matter how "good" NTSC at 720x480 looks, something at 1920x1080p has the potential for SIX times the picture information, with the potential to rival the cinema experience with 2K picture and lossless digital sound (indeed it's better than most multiplexes).

It has been NINE years since DVD was introduced. It has been 67 years since NTSC was shown at the 1939 World's Fair.

HDTV is a COMPLETELY new medium. Blu-ray (& HD DVD) are the first generation of disc based playback media to support it (D-VHS was tape). There hasn't been any double dips as yet. EVERYTHING HD IS NEW!

Joe, you may have been around for the Beta-VHS wars (as was I) but there's an entire generation who's experience with film has been almost entirely through DVD. They've never heard of LaserDisc (certainly not CED), VHS was never that important.

There's people like me who at first had VHS, then upgraded to LD because they wanted the best possible picture and sound. Then DVD came along and let everyone enjoy what LD owners only knew about. Now BRD has the potential to let my HD based system perform to its potential.
 

Paul_Scott

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L&TT will be $14.99 at Circuit City next week.
even if i were concerned about the eventual HD double dip, i doubt i will be able to pick it up for $15 when it comes out.

some double dips i am on the fence about (the Planet Of The Apes films, The Irwin Allen diaster movies, some of the 2 disc Warner SEs due out), but if i can get them for around $15, i doubt i will wait for the hd versions.

in practicality, i see it as the $15 outlay now just buys me a more watchable version for a few years until the HD versions are released and discounted.

even early HD releases (most of which are going to be made from 'banked' hd masters which may not be all that special now) will cease to be 'the ultimate' once 4K scanning is a defacto process (like 16:9 enhancement is now, or should be)
 

ChristopherDAC

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Not so. When Lawrence of Arabia and Terminator II come out, there are going to be a sizable number of people [tens of thousands, in Japan mostly] double-dipping who already bought them on MUSE HiVision LaserDisc. HD equipment went on the market in 1979.

This is pretty off-topic, though. Why can't you just let Joe alone? There's no reason on Earth why, even if he welcomes the advent of High Definition video media for the masses, he shouldn't wish that people would quit going on and on about the latest greatly- or minutely-improved versions of the same 25 films, and sample a little more of what the universe of motion pictures has to offer.
 

PeterTHX

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I know Joe from when he ran the Pioneer Special Editions label (LD double dips) and his articles and letters to "The Perfect Vision". A post like this seems highly out of character, especially when he was advocating re-issues of titles that had bad color correction, missing stereo tracks and the like.

Sure there are the expected "top 25" films, but we are discussing the possibility of "Lady and the Tramp" in HD.
 

DaViD Boulet

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Time to buy the White album...again...

;)

Hoenstly now,

If someone wants to complain about having the chance to purchase films on a format that's capable of delivering (near) 35mm film quality in their home, then they are welcome to start a thread on the topic in the hi-def forum and I would respectfully ask that they avoid thread-farting here.

VHS didn't acheive transparency. Laserdisc didn't acheive it. DVD doesn't acheive it. 1080P has an opportunity to do so if properly mastered. Since transparency is the goal for most audio/videophiles, let's take it as a given that it's a good thing and doesn't need to be defended in this or any other thread at HTF.

Most film enthusiasts have dreamed of the day when they could purchase and view movies in their home that perserved (or exceeded) the fidelity of theatrical prints. For those of us not wealthy enough to purchase first-run 35mm prints and the equipment to project them for private use, hi-def software finally has the ability to deliver on this long-awaited goal.

PeterTHX is absolutely right. All this time we've been tweaking and tweaking the same old 525-line display system that was NEVER intended to acheive 35mm transparency by the technicians who put it in place 50 years ago. The fact that 480P standard-definition software can look as good as it does is a remarkable acheivement and one that I'm very pleased to enjoy, but it's only a temporary substitute in comparison to the profound improvement in quality that proper 1080P encoding can provide.

As a film lover I can have only one opinion on the matter:

Bring it on. I'm ready to buy the same titles all over again...the same classic titles that I bought on VHS, laserdisc, and DVD knowing full-well that those formats weren't able to deliver the goal but were able to offer some parital satisfaction while I waited for the real format to manifest. Any cinephile who wanted to pretend to themselves that DVD on a 35" 4x3 NTSC television (or even upscaled and projected) was able to faithfully recreate 35mm film quality can continue their delusion as long as they wish and stick with DVD while the rest of us enjoy gradually upgrading to a 1080P experience as our budget permits. Just because well-loved film titles happen to have been made available in previous, inferior home-video formats is no reason to condemn their well-deserved emergence in 1080P.

Of course...now I'll be dreaming about a medium that can deliver 70mm film quality in the home with perfect transparency...

:D
 

Joe Caps

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Oh dear.
First, I am accused of thread farting - I don't even know what that means.
Two- I am accused of not being me, because I don't agree that hdtv is the future of everything. AND, Peter tHX says he knew me from california. I have no idea who Peter thx is, of course.

But I am afraid that all this new technology will result in the furthur "redoing" of films for high tech instead of fixing past mistakes.

Cases in point. in spite of several of the following titles being released in two masters, the later, supposedly upgrades, we still have poor releases that don't utilise the current potential of regular dvd.

Camelot - my very first dvd. This almost made me give up on the system. It made me cry. One of my all time favorite films had been treated cruelly. The entire film had been remixed for 5.1 from scratch and with improper and incorrect tracks. This film was nominated for best sound. They should take that nfo off the cover. that sound isnot present on this disc. The disc has never been corrected.
Camelot had two letterbox transfers on Laserdisc. The first used the WRONG six track mix, the second is the same as the dvd. The only home vid release that used the correct Camelot soundtrack was the old pan/scan laserdisc.

Affair to Remember. This dvd looks far betterthan the old laser, but it si ruled oput of court by aninferior soundtrack. Both releases oon dvd use the same badsoundtrack dupe. Clarity is gone and so are the original surrounds.

Love is a Many splendored Thing.
Some of the soundtracks we here from fox fifties films are not the original masters but inferior dupes, where the copies were put through some severe noise gating to get out minor mag hiss. Love is a bad dupe. Fox had turned into them last year a superior release print that has great sound. Release prints can offer really good sound. Listen to Warners Helenof Troy made the same year as LOVE. Far superior sound to love, but helen is made from a release print and done very well.

My Fair lady - I have given up wning a copy of this film that has good sound.
the master six track had been sent to HBO for a new pan and scan transfer for the network in the early 1980s. thats the last that anyone has seen of it.
The dvd is from the remaining print master, which means a curtailed high end. OK. Then do something to get some of that high end back in.
no, the dvds (both releases) cut off more high end to get out some hiss, then pump up some of the bass, which makes the little remaining high end sound worse, then adds reverb to every musical number, then smudging all of the clarity of the original track. Yikes!! Between my Fair lady and Camelot, one gets the impression that Warners hates Lerner and Loewe.
 

TonyDale

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May 3, 2003
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But, Joe, what about the WB re- or re-releases of GIGI and BRIGADOON?
(while we're talking L&L, what about Paramount's THE LITTLE PRINCE? or, Lerner working with Previn & Loewe on PAINT YOUR WAGON? Or, Lerner working with Lane on ON A CLEAR DAY? how do you feel those titles have been treated?)
 

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