DSOTM SACD disc defect....check yours (1 Viewer)

[Dave Moritz]

Hey Keith

You dont want the US pressing. The US pressing is the Crest disc. My first copy was the CDP 7243 5 82136 US and it cracked after 3 plays. I went back to the record store and got it replaced with the CDP 7243 5 82136 2 1. and it has not shown signs of cracking so far

 

[KeithH]

Dave, oh, I know that. That's why I went back to Best Buy looking for a Japanese pressing. My US copy has no cracks, but I didn't want to take a chance.

 

[KeithH]

MikeT said:

This has been a problem with this model since they redesigned the car in 2001 - enough so they have issued a TSB. Did they actually fix the problem on the assembly line - NO.

That's like when a state DOT puts a sign at the side of the road that says "BUMP". :rolleyes

 

[Lee Scoggins]

So what if you can no longer return your disc to the retailer you purchased the disc? I guess you are just screwed. Crest is handling this issue very poorly, avoiding accountability in all forms.

Justin, that's a ridiculous statement. Crest immediately procured cracked discs for testing and found no playing defects. They then immediately issued a statement to Brian at HFR about what they found in less than TWO days! Hardly looks like a cover-up or lack of credibility issue with these actions.

What else could they have done?

And...Nobody on the internet has reported any problems returning the discs.

This story is just way overblown...

 

[Al B. C]

Stereophiles take on it.........

Gee - JA's disc is cracked. Imagine that.

http://www.stereophile.com/shownews.cgi?1635

 

[Michael St. Clair]

Interesting timing on what Iverson has to say.

This weekend I found my receipt (I had filed it with a receipt that I used for a rebate) and tried to return the disc. Best Buy flat-out refused as the disc was more than 30 days old, and insisted that I would have to return it to the manufacturer.

Now, I'm not sure what kind of 'aging' test Crest performed, since they didn't publish the details of the test. They also didn't publish where they obtained their defective discs, or how many they had. Ideally, in process manufacturing, you take quality control samples on standard intervals (like every hour), and impound them so that if you have problems in the future you can match by serial/lot# and pull the samples that were produced at the same time as the defective product. It is entirely possible that the severity of the problem varied throughout their production, and that some discs out there may be further out-of-spec than the ones they tested. But I digress.

So this weekend I performed a test of my own. Not an 'aging' test exactly (no heat, cold, or humidity).

When watching TV (Alias and some news), I would pop the disc into and out of the jewel case. I did this around 400 times. At various intervals, I would repeatedly insert and eject the disc from a cheap DVD player.

Jon Iverson says:

Both Stereophile editor John Atkinson and I checked our DSOTM discs and observed that, sure enough, they too were cracking—my disc has at least a dozen cracks, and the plastic is flaking away in places.

That's what is happening (quite badly) to my disc after my 'stress test'. The cracks have grown, and the plastic is flaking substantially.

I wonder if Crest's 'aging' test actually takes into account the stress that a disc takes from being used? What if my stress test were conducted in addition to simulated aging? Would the results be even worse?

Regardless, do you want a disc shedding plastic flakes inside of your pricey SACD player?

 

[Lee Scoggins]

It is entirely possible that the severity of the problem varied throughout their production, and that some discs out there may be further out-of-spec than the ones they tested.

In reading the official news stories and comments from Crest, it appears that the injection molding tolerances were slightly off from the Japanese and European plant pressings. While it is not clear that these impacted the playability of the discs, it does not seem likely that these tolerances varied much at all through the production run due to the low number of reported disc problems and the fact that tolerances on this equipment tend to be stable. I know this from some manufacturing issues that came up in the 90s with some projects I worked on. These pressing machines are very bulky, expensive things and are engineered to precision adjustments (fractions of a millimeter)...

In any event, I am sure the mfr. will replace your disc. In fact, judging from the actions of Crest, they will likely want to have your disc for testing samples...

 

[Javier_Huerta]

Disc replication firms like Crest have test equipment that can simulate what you have done in an even more stressful scenario. The aging is more relevent though because it gets to whether the disc will fail on playback. I am sure that the aging tests simulated conditions that put years of use on the disc.

I think it's mere speculation on our part as to their testing procedure. There's no indication of what they did - for all we know, they might have played frisbee with the SACD all day long. As I remember from my Material Engineering class, a proper stress test would involve repeated flex, pressure, humidity, and temperature changes with very specialized machinery (the only place I ever saw them was in the biggest university around here). I don't think Crest can afford the machinery needed to perform this testing (they might rent it from somewhere everytime a new material is tested), and I surely doubt they rented it for this purpose. Because, had they done so, they would have noticed the disc will chip off over time - and they didn't notice it!

Crest is NOT doing the right thing - they are merely saying "yes, there's a defect, but it doesn't matter", when it is plain to see it DOES and CAN matter.

PS Crest declaring their discs are the best sounding of them all was interesting. I wonder how they will back up that claim.

 

[Al B. C]

Yeah - it's a shame that Atkinson & Iverson had the misfortune of being included in that low number.

It was 12 discs with the problem - right?

 

[Lee Scoggins]

:rolleyes

 

[Al B. C]

Yeah - that's exactly how I feel about your feeble attempt at damage control.

What, no comment on the "Stereophile Gods" findings?

 

[Justin Lane]

Disc replication firms like Crest have test equipment that can simulate what you have done in an even more stressful scenario. The aging is more relevent though because it gets to whether the disc will fail on playback. I am sure that the aging tests simulated conditions that put years of use on the disc.

Lee, you have no clue as to what procedure they used and are frankly passing off conjecture as fact. Until Crest publishes their testing procedure, I still find zero credibility in their statements. Did they just spin the disc for hours, did they remove the disc hundreds of times from from a disc mechanism, etc. Either way, you can never demonstrate accurately long term effects in only two days. It is just not possible.

Bottom line is the biggest Hybrid SACD to date has run into major manufacturing problems. Not a good case study for all star artists, stealth marketing, or SACD in general. Crest is trying to undermine my beloved SACD format by not addressing the matter properly and I don't like it.

Crest Faulty Hybrids

J

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Bottom line is the biggest Hybrid SACD to date has run into major manufacturing problems.

I hardly think a production run at one facility that produces cosmetic cracks is a "major manufacturing problem".

If these cracks lead to issues with playing the disc, then its another story but there is little evidence so far that is the case.

Why don't you give Crest kudos for examining the problem as soon as they found out about it? They don't seem to be hiding anything with their quick responses.

Maybe if you email them, they will explain the tests they performed in more detail. I have visited a replication plant before and they are very sophisticated mfg operations. The glass master process itself is very cool. There is usually all sorts of testing equipment on hand and many plants randomly sample their production output to guard against these types of things happening.

As far as aging goes, no replicator would do anything less than exposure to varying temperatures and repeated playing attempts. The main concern is likely whether the inner spindle layer will fail and that probably has more to do with the materials chemically breaking down (maybe from the cracks) over time which is likely the main thing Crest tried to test for.

I will try to see if Crest has any details on their testing process...

 

[Lee Scoggins]

What, no comment on the "Stereophile Gods" findings?

Al, I'm not sure what comments would add value. They found cosmetic cracks but have not experienced any problems playing the discs.

Crest seemed to respond quickly to their inquiries as well.

I don't think its helpful to immediately assume Crest is guilty until some more facts about real damage come to light.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

PS Crest declaring their discs are the best sounding of them all was interesting. I wonder how they will back up that claim.

They may be able to provide jitter numbers for each of the three pressings - the lower one wins!

 

[Al B. C]

Lee, their discs were flaking of bits of whatever material it is.

I think that qualifies as beyond cosmetic.

 

[Justin Lane]

Why don't you give Crest kudos for examining the problem as soon as they found out about it? They don't seem to be hiding anything with their quick responses.

What option did they have after all of the problems coming to light? I would hope they would examine an issue pertaining to defects in their product. Nope, no kudos here for doing what any responsbible business should have done before hand (i.e. test each run of discs for defects).

J

 

[Kevin C Brown]

Hey, anyone have an address for that Crest plant? I think I'd be willing to try to send mine back, just to see what would happen.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

What option did they have after all of the problems coming to light?

Well that's a good question, but Crest may not be able to easily handle the return of lots of discs. Most replication plants woudl have trouble with that. Most likely they will work a deal with EMI so exchanges can be covered at the various retailers...Tower, Circuit City, Best Buy, etc.

The retailers definitely don't want unhappy customers since these days its hard enough to get people in the store.

If EMI puts out a notice (just like they did the "sell sheet" about the DSOTM marketing stuff) that they will cover everyone's costs, then I am sure the retailers will be able to make exchanges. EMI may also have to send extra stock from the Japan and Europe plants or new stock from Crest with improved injection molding machine settings.

My point is that it may be a leap to assume Crest can handle any returns...

 

[Javier_Huerta]

My point is that it may be a leap to assume Crest can handle any returns...

And that's a big problem for people like me, who cannot return their discs anywhere.

I'd personally keep one of the cracked copies. Who knows. It might become a big issue on e-Bay someday (MINT CRACKED DSOTM SACD, CIRCA 2003! COLLECTORS ITEM FROM THE CREST PLANT! ONLY XXXX CRACKED COPIES PRESSED!)