The Matrix Revolutions (2003) (1 Viewer)

[Chris Atkins]

where some people see holes in a plot, others (like me) see none.

I don't think you can deny that it is a plot hole. The question is can we fill it in a way that makes sense given the greater context of the films?

We've come closer than I thought we could (reducing machine casualties) but it's certainly not a slam dunk.

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

joDOR,

Creating an explanation for a gap in the story is not the same as the story not having a gap to begin with. All stories have them, how they effect the story depends on where they are, how they are handled, and their importance to what the story has to say.

Chris,

Reducing machine casualties doesn't work, for me, because of the way the machines toss endless numbers of sentinels at Zion during the siege. They never profess a concern for the number of machines used or wasted.

I think the idea that the agents don't know because they aren't meant to know ("I know it because it is my purpose to know") makes more sense.

 

[Chris Atkins]

I think the idea that the agents don't know because they aren't meant to know ("I know it because it is my purpose to know") makes more sense.

I agree, to the extent that we can rationalize that the machines would knowingly order the agents to perform a task that they (the machines) knew to be meaningless. And this only makes sense if the agents let the heroes know they are looking for Zion, in order to spur them to some action that ultimately benefits the machines.

 

[joDOR]

Creating an explanation for a gap in the story is not the same as the story not having a gap to begin with.

depends on what you mean by "create", i guess.

look, none of these questions ever occurred to me during the movies, and when i first encountered them being asked on this forum, the answers were pretty much self-evident to me. really.

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

joDOR, everytime we posit an explanation, we are creating something. If the films gave the explanation, we wouldn't have to invent or hypothesize. The fact that there are several different interpretations or possibilities would mean that the answers are not self-evident. But I digress. I don't want to go around and around on this.

this only makes sense if the agents let the heroes know they are looking for Zion, in order to spur them to some action that ultimately benefits the machines.

This is what I was driving at. Just like the original matrices didn't work because they were too idyllic, perhaps Zion couldn't work without an antagonistic force and they created the agents to fulfill that need.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

john,
Good to see you

Todd,
Good follow-up to the casualties discussion (regarding the machines not caring about that). Perhaps it is as simple as minimizing Zion damage. Or just as likely, it's a mere subroutine of the agents (Kill exiles, find Zion codes). They aren't exactly big fish in the machine world.

On that, I tend to agree with john. I just didn't see many plot holes. I saw plenty of questions, and quite a few unexplained details, but nothing concrete that I couldn't deduce based upon some piece of information in the films.

As always...I'm thoroughly enjoying this

Take care,
Chuck

 

[joDOR]

but I think if you are defending the film (such as in a few of the posts above), it's unfair to use postulations outside the film to justify what is in the film itself.

what remains unclear to me is how, exactly, the explanations offered by chuck and myself (and others) are "outside the film"...

 

[Chris Atkins]

Let me see if I can offer up an analogy to explain where Todd and I are coming from. I think there are plot holes in movies that can be brushed aside and plot holes that demand to be questioned.

Imagine if Two Towers began with the orcs having Frodo in captivity? This would be a jarring development to me, and one that I would seek an explanation for, in a way that I wouldn't seek an explanation for something more minor.

The Zion codes are a major part of the plot in the first Matrix movie. Heck, we can surmise that one of the major reasons they captured Morpheus (instead of killing him like Mouse) is to get the codes to Zion.

So for the machines to be at the doorstep of Zion in the beginning of Reloaded, when keeping that location secret at the end of the first film drives a lot of the plot and tension, is indeed a plot hole that I would like to fill in order to increase my enjoyment of the movies.

 

[EricW]

maybe they wanted the codes to de-activate Zion's defenses, not to know where Zion was. in Reloaded, they STILL hadn't activated the defenses, and in fact had to go around them... and if it hadn't been for Bane, Zion still could have (possibly) defended against the drilling attack.

was there a part in M1 where Smith said he wanted to know WHERE Zion was?

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

joDOR,

Like I said, I don't want to go around and around but nowhere did I make any statements on plausibility, likelyhood, quality, or anything else.

All of our explanations are outside the films because they are not contained in the films themselves. If the films don't mention why the agents do what they do, then any postulations we make are outside the content of the film. We are guessing (however educated the guesses may be) at the motives.

This is not a slam on the film. Leaving questions unanswered or ambiguous is part and parcel of film. But the fact that such questions are unanswered or motives ambiguous is a space left open for us, the viewers, to fill in - and that is our invention.

 

[EricW]

i think it's just simply the case where the W's didn't think ahead. if the structure of Reloaded and Revolutions were in place and thoroughly thought out when Matrix1 was being made, Matrix 1 could have more effectively drawn out a trilogy while not hurting itself as a possible one-shot movie. aside from the Architect's screens when Neo gets interrogated, there's no hint of a grander story. worse - M1 is almost too restrictive to allow the events in parts 2+3.

i think Phantom Menace would have been much better if there had been even a passing reference to Sifo-Dyas, and the whole clone army thing, which was happening pretty much at that time, instead of referencing it in Ep2. but that's just what i think

 

[joDOR]

So for the machines to be at the doorstep of Zion in the beginning of Reloaded, when keeping that location secret at the end of the first film drives a lot of the plot and tension, is indeed a plot hole that I would like to fill in order to increase my enjoyment of the movies.

ok. i accept that you consider this a plot hole, and i won't dispute your choice of terminology. so let's get down to brass tacks.

here's the filler for what you're considering a gap:

the humans believe that the machines have no idea where zion is. as a result, they place the highest premium on the secrecy of the codes to the zion mainframe. in fact, however, the machines already know where zion is and have actually populated and destroyed it six times previously in their ongoing attempts to perfect the coding for the matrix by its integration with the "One" program.

now, we know at least this much because the films explicitly tell us. so this can't be the "hole" you're talking about, right? in other words, you're not questioning how the machines can seem not to know where zion is in one movie, and then know where it is in another, right? because, as i say, the movies come right out and explain it. it's the narrative basis for the whole trilogy...

 

[Chris Atkins]

i think Phantom Menace would have been much better if there had been even a passing reference to Sifo-Dyas, and the whole clone army thing, which was happening pretty much at that time, instead of referencing it in Ep2. but that's just what i think

GREAT POINT, and actually a better comparison than the one I offered in a post above.

 

[Chris Atkins]

John:

At the end of Matrix 1, we are led to believe that the machines do NOT know where Zion is.

At the beginning of Matrix 2, the machines in fact DO KNOW where Zion is.

So I'm left with: why do they send Smith to get the codes at the end of the first movie, if they know where it is?

This is a hole that is not filled in by the movie. So far, I'm not completely satisfied with what we've come up with (i.e. I'm not convinced that this isn't sloppy writing) but I'm persuadable).

 

[Chuck Mayer]

I think that would be a mistake in The Matrix.

You tell the audience what they NEED to know at that time. To be honest, one of the reasons I loved Reloaded was it built upon the information the audience received in The Matrix. It required a perspective shift in the characters and the audience, which was quite jarring. I find The Matrix meshes SEAMLESSLY with the sequels. Nothing in the first film is contradicted. The first film is about learning the secret of the Matrix with the One. Who becomes the One, and BEGINS his journey. That's the story.

As much as LOTR, I see the three films as one, with each successive film building upon the story, and going in a new direction.

I enjoy the change-ups,
Chuck

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

Like I mentioned earlier, I think the agents are planted antagonists to push the captains forward in their search for the One. Without them, the captains (or at least Morpheus) would not strive as mightily to find and free the One.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

Chris,
"We all do what we're meant to do."

The explicit information in the sequels (the Architect scene) shows that the rebels believe something that isn't true. The machines simply maintain that illusion in the first film, fooling the audience as well. The question should be: do the Agents know where Zion is or why they need the codes? They are not free thinkers...they are soldiers following orders. Smith is an exception to this, which is even shown during the interrogation in the first scene. That doesn't mean he knows any more than the other agents.

Smith's job is to wipe out the rebels. They live in Zion, where he has to go. Codes will allow easier access. It's simple to him. The rebels believe that these codes are what is keeping them safe. So much so they are willing to kill a Captain to do so.

But the rebels are wrong. About a great many things.

Take care,
Chuck

 

[Chris Atkins]

Like I mentioned earlier, I think the agents are planted antagonists to push the captains forward in their search for the One. Without them, the captains (or at least Morpheus) would not strive as mightily to find and free the One.

Or, perhaps more accurately, the One himself would strive more mightily to save Morpheus, and thus make himself known as the carrier of the source needed to reboot the Matrix after Zion is destroyed.

 

[Chris Atkins]

Chuck:

In the comic-book world, I believe this is called "ret-conning."

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

Hey Chuck,

Either or both

Really, the agents are not needed for anything. The machines could simply adjust the matrix to destroy anything they didn't want in it, which they do on a limited scale in Matrix 1 with Cypher's betrayal. They exist soley as personified obstacles to Neo and the captains, inefficient ones at that, considering how Morpheus and co. are able to move in, out, and around at will.