The Matrix Revolutions (2003) (2 Viewers)

[Chris Atkins]

Good points from Chris and Eric. I'm still left with the impression (from the first film) that the machines didn't know where Zion was, which (as of yet) doesn't jive with their knowing where it is at the beginning of Reloaded.

I'm sure we can resolve this discrepancy.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

Maybe the agents don't know. Zion is probably a secret in the machine world as well. Only certain programs and machines know of it's existence. Agent Smith was doing what he was meant to do. Hunt the rebels, and find Zion. He was out of the loop as much as Morpheus, it seems.

For a time,
Chuck

 

[Pete-D]

My personal feeling is that the Wachowski's simply ran out of story to tell with the last two films.

We already know Neo is "The One" at the end of the first movie and a full character arc is completed, the second and third are just more "well maybe he isn't ... OK, so he is, but weren't all those new characters we introduced cool?".

I found the "Second Renassiance" on the Animatrix to be fascinating though. It would've been cool if Neo maybe accessed the Matrix mainframe and was able to see for himself the history of man and machines and how humanity had failed in the past.

 

[Kirk Tsai]

We already know Neo is "The One" at the end of the first movie and a full character arc is completed, the second and third are just more "well maybe he isn't ... OK, so he is

I agree with you to a certain extent on the first comment, but the second one seems off base. There isn't any doubt on Neo's status as The One; rather, the question is, what exactly does the status of The One mean? What is Neo's place in the grand scheme? That is the heart of Reloaded and Revolutions.

I'm looking forward to those dual commentary tracks on the new set.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

I think the real story is in Reloaded. That's why it's my favorite. The first film is merely the birth/realization of the One. Nothing about his journey or purpose. The first film is the most Hollywood, the basic Joseph Campbell Hero story, told before and told again a hundred times in cinema. The second film is where it gets a bit different.

A question I thought of last night. How do the machines ensure that the One is not slaughtered in Zion. Clearly, it's a numerical game of when to attack Zion. Once enough minds are freed, then it's time. As stated in Reloaded, "We have freed more minds in the past six months than...etc". So maybe it's the rate of freed minds, indicating the presence of the (new) integral anomaly. But to ensure he fulfills his purpose and isn't crewing some hovercraft somewhere???

Still percolating that one. Right now I chalk it up to a level of computing analysis that mimics precognition, much like the Oracle. Just looking for evidence.

Take care,
Chuck

 

[Pete-D]

Neo's "purpose" is to free humankind from the Matrix, I'd say that's pretty well established by the middle of the first film and doesn't really change all that much by the end of the third film. There are a few "what a minute" moments along the way, but those were present in the first film too as Neo struggles to accept his role.

The second and third movies I think make a lot of noise, but really don't have a lot to say.

I don't mind Reloaded or Revolutions, like say the Star Wars prequels. They're still watchable. Some enjoyable action sequences. I even liked the primordial "rave" sequence with Neo and Trinity getting it on, even though it goes on fooooooorever.

My personal biggest gripe about Reloaded and Revolutions is probably that Morpheus doesn't really have much of a role to play. The other thing is I would have liked to have seen more interaction between Neo and the machines at the end of Revolutions.

 

[Chris Atkins]

I don't mind Reloaded or Revolutions, like say the Star Wars prequels. They're still watchable. Some enjoyable action sequences. I even liked the primordial "rave" sequence with Neo and Trinity getting it on, even though it goes on fooooooorever.

You had to go and throw down the gauntlet, didn't you?

I will say that, sticking to your own criticisms of the Matrix sequels (and assuming them to be true, which I don't), Lucas certainly didn't run out of story with the SW prequels. ROTJ revealed (or changed, depending on your perspective) the focus of the SW saga from Luke to Anakin, and now we have a reason and a desire to see how Anakin became Vader.

Watchability....that's another matter. But I don't think the SW prequels are as criticizable on the "ran out of story" theory you posited earlier.

 

[Chris Atkins]

Maybe the agents don't know. Zion is probably a secret in the machine world as well. Only certain programs and machines know of it's existence. Agent Smith was doing what he was meant to do. Hunt the rebels, and find Zion. He was out of the loop as much as Morpheus, it seems.

That's an interesting theory, but then why did the machines want him to find the access codes to Zion then?

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

Just a thought from a lurker :

It's easy to postulate all kinds of reasons for why things happened the way they did in the Matrix universe but those aren't relevant to the films unless they appear in the films themselves. A question isn't solved if we simply invent the answer. The films must present the answer to us, if they choose to answer it at all.

Obviously, half the fun is in the posing of what-ifs but I think if you are defending the film (such as in a few of the posts above), it's unfair to use postulations outside the film to justify what is in the film itself.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

Maybe the same reason the Allied Troops landed paratroopers the day before D-Day. Hoping to save lives and minimize casualties.

One of the key tenets of the third film, something untouched in the first and lightly touched in Reloaded, is that machines are a nascent lifeform. When Neo sees them in orange, tacky as it sounds, he is seeing their soul "equivalent". So why wouldn't machines rather go in the front door, with defense weapons off, rather than drill down and lose many more sentinels and support machines?

It would make sense to get the codes. But if they can't...they still have a deadline So, the hard way it is.

Why does Neo have to jump through all of those hoops to get the Keymaker (who the upgraded agents would have killed)? I can see why the Merovingian would want to keep the Keymaker, but the agents? He is vital to Neo getting to where he has to go. Again, precognitive computing must have shown how best to push Neo in the right directions. If the oracle could do it...why not the architect as well?

Interesting,
Chuck

 

[Marc_Sulinski]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Maybe the agents don't know. Zion is probably a secret in the machine world as well. Only certain programs and machines know of it's existence. Agent Smith was doing what he was meant to do. Hunt the rebels, and find Zion. He was out of the loop as much as Morpheus, it seems.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



That's an interesting theory, but then why did the machines want him to find the access codes to Zion then?

I am guessing that having the mainframe codes makes the destruction of Zion that much easier. With the mainframe codes, programs could infiltrate Zion and shut it down, which would eventually kill everyone there. I don't think the machines ever got the codes. Instead, they sent sentinels to physically destroy Zion.

 

[Chuck Mayer]

Todd,
The films asked more questions than they answered.

Doesn't mean the directors dropped the ball, or didn't have reasons for things happening a certain way. Just that those questions (without film answers) didn't really matter to the overarching story. If they matter to the viewers...well then the viewers can figure it out.

I like doing that.

It's a fun puzzle,
Chuck

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

Re: the Keymaker

The only thing I can think of (and it isn't supported anywhere in the films that I know of) is that Neo wouldn't trust the Keymaker unless he were seen as being outside or at least at odds with the system.

Precognitive computing? Is this mentioned anywhere in any of the films?

 

[Chuck Mayer]

Precog computing is essentially defined as (by?) the Oracle. So it is discussed. That term is never coined. I pulled it out of my butt, because the machines are clearly using predictive analysis.

But again, out of my ass.

Good point regarding the Keymaker,
Chuck

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

Chuck,

I don't mean to say that they dropped the ball. But I think plot questions as pertains to the film shouldn't be de-valued because we can come up with an answer.

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

I was never sure how precog the Oracle was, given the nature of how the Matrix is plugged into people's heads.

 

[Marc_Sulinski]

Precog computing is essentially defined as (by?) the Oracle. So it is discussed. That term is never coined. I pulled it out of my butt, because the machines are clearly using predictive analysis.

I believe the term used in the film was "intuitive program."

 

[joDOR]

That's an interesting theory, but then why did the machines want him to find the access codes to Zion then?

as chuck noted, in order to minimize machine casualities. but also presumably to minimize damage to zion itself, since they would want to use it again for the next reboot of the matrix; the less they have to rebuild, the better.

 

[Todd Terwilliger]

Interesting theories but I don't think the films develop anything to support them.

The best idea I have for why Smith and the agents are hunting for Zion is because that is what they are programmed to do. Their purpose brings purpose to Morpheus and the captains and, therefore, to the One.

 

[joDOR]

Interesting theories but I don't think the films develop anything to support them.

what do you mean? the theories are all consistent with the content of the films, and are thus "supported" by it.

i mean, some of these "theories" strike me as about as theoretical as the "theory" that neo and morpheus and the rest of the humans probably went to the bathroom every now and then, even though the film never actually shows them going, you know? where some people see holes in a plot, others (like me) see none.