TCFHE Press Release: Star Wars: The Complete Saga (Blu-ray) (1 Viewer)

[Ruz-El]

I think what I like most about Empire is the ending. You basically get to watch the heroes of the first film pretty much fail at everything, and it all ends with them rather defeated, having accomplished little, but still determined to continue on. It totally works as it's own film for me, as opposed to something like "Back To The Future Part 2" that while being pretty good, totally feels like an overlong middle bit to get to the old west.

 

[Sam Favate]

The open-ending to Empire recalls the old movie serials, which everyone knew Lucas was paying tribute to. So criticism for "lack of an ending" seems hollow.


And let's be clear: Empire may be the lowest-grossing of the six films, but it's but no means a failure! (Attack of the Clones is the only one of the films not to be #1 at the box office the year it was released, and no one considers that a financial disappointment. FYI, Spiderman was #1.)

 

[cafink]

Originally Posted by Russell G

I think what I like most about Empire is the ending. You basically get to watch the heroes of the first film pretty much fail at everything, and it all ends with them rather defeated, having accomplished little, but still determined to continue on. It totally works as it's own film for me, as opposed to something like "Back To The Future Part 2" that while being pretty good, totally feels like an overlong middle bit to get to the old west.

I feel pretty much the opposite. Admittedly, Back to the Future Part 2 goes so far as to end with "To Be Continued," but ignoring that, I think it works much better as a self-contained story. Yes, they throw in the "Delorean zapped with lightning" cliffhanger at the end, but that's really more like the beginning of another story; all of the main BTTF2 plotlines are completely wrapped up at that point. Empire, on the other hand, leaves a lot more plot threads open, and doesn't really resolve anything. I enjoy it, but I have a hard time understanding how it could stand on its own.

 

[Douglas Monce]

To be fair, its clear that Lucas was using the model of the cliffhanger serials that inspired the making of the films in the first place. I'm actually kind of surprised that we never got a cliffhanger ending on any of the Indy films.


Doug

 

[Douglas Monce]

Originally Posted by Sam Favate

The open-ending to Empire recalls the old movie serials, which everyone knew Lucas was paying tribute to. So criticism for "lack of an ending" seems hollow.


And let's be clear: Empire may be the lowest-grossing of the six films, but it's but no means a failure! (Attack of the Clones is the only one of the films not to be #1 at the box office the year it was released, and no one considers that a financial disappointment. FYI, Spiderman was #1.)

Oh no doubt that Empire was a hit, and the biggest money maker of 1980, though it really didn't have much competition that year. However I was talking about its relative popularity with in the Star Wars films themselves.


BTW If you have ever seen Attack of the Clones in the IMAX version, which is almost, 30 min shorter, it is a MUCH better film! In fact in that cut personally I would say it’s my 3rd favorite Star Wars film behind Empire.


Doug

 

[Carlo_M]

I would counter the "PT more critically praised than OT" with this:


Today's critics are by and large nowhere near as knowledgeable or critical as those in the 70s and early 80s. Film was scrutinized much more closely then (just go to your local library and check out film reviews from that time--and earlier--and compare them to now). Sure there are still some critics doing that kind of analysis today but they are far more in the minority than they were back in the day.


Don't forget group-think as well, exacerbated by the internet mentality. At the time of release, most people and reviewers heaped praise on TPM, something that it clearly didn't deserve and time has shown that. Even AoTC has fared poorly in hindsight.


I think the current tomato rankings are very much in line with how the films will be portrayed in history. Don't forget that TPM is now 12 years old and AoTC is 9. This is enough time for that new-car smell to wear off and for people to start judging films accurately, and to see how they stand the test of time. I don't know how anyone can make a logical argument that the PT is a better set of films than the OT.

 

[cafink]

I tend to agree with Carlo. The comparison of the Prequel Trilogy's Rotten Tomato scores to those of the Original Trilogy's contemporaneous reviews was very surprising--definitely not what I'd have expected. But I still think that in another 20 or 30 years, Star Wars and Empire will still consistently appear on "all-time best" lists, while the prequels will be largely ignored. 10 years on, I don't think Episode I or II hold up very well at all.

 

[TravisR]

Originally Posted by Carlo Medina

Don't forget group-think as well, exacerbated by the internet mentality.

And there's no group-think mentality for the prequel haters? I already know the exact people who will tell me I'm wrong but if group-think added to The Phantom Menace being praised than it's just as fair to say that group-think has added to it being bashed on the internet.

 

[Jeff F.]

I also was old enough to see "Empire Strikes Back" in a movie theater back in 1980 in Orange County, CA. The line went completely around the theater, and it was a zoo! There was A LOT of groaning from the audience when this dark and kind of depressing movie pretty much abruptly ended, without a resolution, and I, along with most of the crowd, was a little pissed that we'd have to wait three years to find out what happens.


But as the years roll by and I'm able to revisit the OT by watching them in the comfort of my own living room within a span of a week or less, rather than 6 years, I now find ESB to be my favorite of the trilogy. The character development is light years ahead of SW, and I like the dark nature of the film and the feeling at the end that all might be lost.


Just goes to show how the passage of time can affect one's perspective about movies.

 

[Stephen_J_H]

Originally Posted by Douglas Monce

BTW If you have ever seen Attack of the Clones in the IMAX version, which is almost, 30 min shorter, it is a MUCH better film! In fact in that cut personally I would say it’s my 3rd favorite Star Wars film behind Empire.


Doug

Finally, someone agrees with me on this point! The IMAX version of AOTC is a tighter and less redundant film than the regular cut. I would love to see this cut made available on the BD as a bonus feature through seamless branching, but I also know it ain't gonna happen. *sigh*

 

[RobertR]

Originally Posted by TravisR

Don't forget group-think as well, exacerbated by the internet mentality.

And there's no group-think mentality for the prequel haters? I already know the exact people who will tell me I'm wrong but if group-think added to The Phantom Menace being praised than it's just as fair to say that group-think has added to it being bashed on the internet.

[/QUOTE]

I think the "group think" comment has to do with a shared desire for the film to be good (which every SW fan had in May of 1999). It took a lot for people to say to themselves "uh, I wanted it to be good..but....I realize it's bad". It also took time. It has nothing to do with the deep rift between those who still think George Lucas is the brilliant Star Wars creator, and those who don't think nearly as much of him as they did then.

 

[Kevin EK]

I remember well seeing the original trilogy in the theater, and I remember the critical reaction at the time.


The adjusted Rotten Tomatoes score is correct.


When Empire Strikes Back was originally in theaters in 1980, it got decidedly mixed reviews. Charles Champlin in the LA Times made a point of saying that he felt the film dragged in spots and wasn't as compelling as the first film, and his views were repeated when the score was released on vinyl and reviewed. At the time, there were a lot of people ticked off that the movie ended on a cliffhanger, and annoyed about the sudden inclusion of "Episode V" at the top of the movie. I remember some comparisons to Apocalypse Now, in that the biggest action sequence of the movie happens pretty early on, and after the asteroid chase, things take on a more subdued tone, rather than building to a big battle at the end like the first film. (And BTW, the reviews at the time of Apocalypse Now made a similar point - it was only in years afterward that many people really began to appreciate AN...)


When Jedi came out in 1983, the critics were pretty merciless with it. Even Richard Marquand made comments about the reaction, joking that the third soldier through the opening is the one that gets shot...


Time will tell with the prequels. I personally think they all have their strengths and weaknesses, but the third one is easily the strongest.

 

[Carlo_M]

Actually I'd argue there was group think at the time of release in favor of TPM. I remember really liking it the first two times I saw it in a packed theater on release week. The excitement of a new SW movie, lightsabers, space fights, Yoda, etc. It was all grand and golden. Then on subsequent viewings (saw it four times in the original theatrical run) the flaws really became obvious and unforgiving. No group think to reach that conclusion, quite the opposite in fact.


Not to say there isn't any. Group-think can and does occur anywhere/everywhere. But TPM is just a bad movie. AoTC not much better. I haven't seen many articulated, well-thought out defenses to either film, illustrating why they are good films. Okay, I haven't seen any. The most I've seen people go to defend TPM/AoTC is to say "they aren't as bad as everyone says they are" which is a far, far cry from truly illustrating why they are good films. The points that Redlettermedia's review on the PT illustrate where the PT fails in basic screenwriting/directing/acting 101. I'd like to see someone mount a defense against those criticisms.

Originally Posted by TravisR

Don't forget group-think as well, exacerbated by the internet mentality.

And there's no group-think mentality for the prequel haters? I already know the exact people who will tell me I'm wrong but if group-think added to The Phantom Menace being praised than it's just as fair to say that group-think has added to it being bashed on the internet.

[/QUOTE]

 

[Ruz-El]

Originally Posted by RobertR




I think the "group think" comment has to do with a shared desire for the film to be good (which every SW fan had in May of 1999). It took a lot for people to say to themselves "uh, I wanted it to be good..but....I realize it's bad". It also took time. It has nothing to do with the deep rift between those who still think George Lucas is the brilliant Star Wars creator, and those who don't think nearly as much of him as they did then.

I'd argue it didn't take much. You had nearly 20 years of expectations and theorizing what could be, and you ended up with Jar Jar and a crap kid actor. With the insane fandom that Star Wars has, even if it was an amazing film you would of had people complaining since it didn't capture the nostalgia that they wanted it too. It couldn't possibly, it's an impossible task. See guns & Roses with "Chinese Democracy" and other projects with long wait times.

The internet I think is ultimately to blame for the prequels to be the punching bags of suck that they tend to be spoken as. Too many bloggers and fan boys huddled in their room trying to out do the next basher and make a name for themselves has pretty much replaced legitimate journalism. It's easy for things to get blown up way out of context, and in the reverse, for movies previously ignored for being crap to now be declared master pieces and exemplary examples of their genres when they don't deserve to be. (see "Troll 2").


For me personally, I do like the prequels. There's stuff in them I don't like, and I wouldn't say the prequel films are ahead of the original trilogy in terms of overall quality, but I do enjoy them for what they are. Many of the sins in TPM (for me, as annoying as baby Vader and Jar Jar are, what ultimately disappointed me is that the tone seemed childish, as opposed to the original trilogy that felt mature, but suitable for all ages. There is a difference there) were more then redeemed by ROTS, which I put right up there with "Empire" in quality.

Finally, someone agrees with me on this point! The IMAX version of AOTC is a tighter and less redundant film than the regular cut. I would love to see this cut made available on the BD as a bonus feature through seamless branching, but I also know it ain't gonna happen. *sigh*

I'd love to see this cut. Hopefully we get some more information, if this is the "ultimate" set, then it should have all the multiple versions, like the "Alien Anthology".

 

[Douglas Monce]

Originally Posted by RobertR

Don't forget group-think as well, exacerbated by the internet mentality.

And there's no group-think mentality for the prequel haters? I already know the exact people who will tell me I'm wrong but if group-think added to The Phantom Menace being praised than it's just as fair to say that group-think has added to it being bashed on the internet.

[/QUOTE]

I think the "group think" comment has to do with a shared desire for the film to be good (which every SW fan had in May of 1999). It took a lot for people to say to themselves "uh, I wanted it to be good..but....I realize it's bad". It also took time. It has nothing to do with the deep rift between those who still think George Lucas is the brilliant Star Wars creator, and those who don't think nearly as much of him as they did then.



I didn't think TPM was bad then and I don't think its bad now. Its clearly not the best of the Star Wars films, but its hardly bad.


Doug

 

[Douglas Monce]

I have to say that my biggest Star Wars disappointment was Return of the Jedi. Good lord what a boring horribly acted film! It’s the one film that I NEVER watch anymore.


Doug

 

[Ruz-El]

Originally Posted by Douglas Monce

I have to say that my biggest Star Wars disappointment was Return of the Jedi. Good lord what a boring horribly acted film! It’s the one film that I NEVER watch anymore.


Doug

"Return Of The Jedi" was the beginning of every Star Wars film having something in it that drove me crazy!


Star Wars - nothing drives me crazy


Empire - Same as Star Wars


Jedi - Those damned Ewoks! I never liked them as a kid, don't like them now.


Phantom - The kid playing Anakin. You just want to slap him from the get go, smug little prick! (I know he's just a kid but still...)


Clone Wars - Whenever the horrendously written and conceived love story bit come in.


Sith - redeemed Star Wars, nothing drove me crazy.

Despite the above, I still over all enjoy all the films. I'd rate Empire, Star Wars and Sith as the top three.

 

[RobertR]

Originally Posted by Russell G

With the insane fandom that Star Wars has, even if it was an amazing film you would of had people complaining since it didn't capture the nostalgia that they wanted it too.

No film is universally liked, even the ones on various "best" lists. If it had been a great film, people would have been overjoyed, the few "you can't please everyone" gripers notwithstanding. The existence of such gripers is a huge difference from what we have now, which is widespread dissatisfaction with what we got. People in general wanted very much to like the film.

I didn't think TPM was bad then and I don't think its bad now. Its clearly not the best of the Star Wars films, but its hardly bad.

But you have to acknowledge, Doug, that many, many people do think it's bad, people who liked SW before TPM was released.

 

[TravisR]

Originally Posted by Douglas Monce

I have to say that my biggest Star Wars disappointment was Return of the Jedi. Good lord what a boring horribly acted film! It’s the one film that I NEVER watch anymore.


Doug

And despite the flaws in Return Of The Jedi, many of those who dissect every flaw of the prequels seemingly turn a blind eye to any problem in the OT or, at the very least, they go much easier on Jedi than they ever would on the prequels.

 

[RobertR]

Originally Posted by TravisR


And despite the flaws in Return Of The Jedi, many of those who dissect every flaw of the prequels seemingly turn a blind eye to any problem in the OT or, at the very least, they go much easier on Jedi than they ever would on the prequels.

I always thought ROJ marked the beginning of Lucas' downward slide.