subs vs towers w/sub (1 Viewer)

[JohnMW]

This long thread has really cleared up an issue I was concerned about. I do not have a fortune to drop on speakers by any means. However, I think that a nice set of bookshelf speakers for the fronts, a nice center, and some bi-pole surrounds + the SVS powered sub will do wonders for me.
Thanks guys.

 

[Martice]

One thing this thread didn't clear up is what room, system, tastes and percentage of HT/Audio the original poster may have had.
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What if it gets no better than this!?!

 

[Stacy Huff]

Bob-A,
Man on man, your wife won't let you have a sub, but she likes the looks of the towers. Think about it man! Sounds to me like you should add another tower (or two) of the SVS variety. Then you'd finally get to hear (and feel) real bass.
I think it's worth a shot. One in each front corner. Think about it.

 

[Bob_A]

Ron believe me I would love to have dual SVS-Ultras...but as long as my setup is in the family room, it's not going to happen unfortunately.
My questions were:
1)Would you not recommend a powered tower, even if it is possible that powered towers + external subs could lead to a more "satisfying" system for music/movies vs. nonpowered towers + external subs?
2)If you will not recommend powered towers (in all but the most extreme cases), then will you not recommend ANY other near full range speaker (in all but the most extreme cases)?
3)If you will not recommend powered towers (in all but the most extreme cases), then will you not recommend ANY other speakers in their respective price ranges (in all but the most extreme cases)?
It is a very tricky scenario here because we do not have too many people who have compared a setup of powered towers + external subs to nonpowered towers + external subs...but I am hoping that some can imagine that the former setup could be more "desireable" than the latter.

 

[Bob_A]

Oh man, my sides are hurting!

Hey it had to end sometime right?

 

[Bob_A]

quote: Bob-A,
Man on man, your wife won't let you have a sub, but she likes the looks of the towers. Think about it man! Sounds to me like you should add another tower (or two) of the SVS variety. Then you'd finally get to hear (and feel) real bass.
I think it's worth a shot. One in each front corner. Think about it.[/quote]
Stacy, the room is 20x25x25 ft (LxWxH). The towers are placed in a walled "insert"...the entire insert itself is only around 7 feet wide and about 4 feet deep, so I am forced to keep about 2 feet of space for the rear drivers to fire and 4 feet of space in between the speakers (not to mention that a 60 inch Pioneer RPTV resides in between the speakers). My components (cd player, dvd player, vcr, receiver) are also placed in the walled insert...on a built-in platform which rests about a foot above the RPTV. The room is completely open to the left, and almost entirely open to the rear. The only corners are the right front and right rear corner. The right front corner is > 10 feet away from the nearest main speaker!
So, since the towers are in the walled insert, their depth does not become so noticeable...and with their slim profile, they are very unobtrusive. It also doesn't hurt to have the Pioneer sitting right next to the mains!
[Edited last by Bob_A on October 27, 2001 at 02:17 AM]

 

[Bob_A]

Wonderful.
1/3 page worth of useful information. 2 pages worth of "he said... no he said" - NONE of which helps to answer the question of the original poster.
May I use this thread as a perfect example of thread hijacking?

Mike you are correct...it had gotten a bit off topic and I am partly responsible for that...sorry.
But if the user would provide more information for us regarding listening preferences (%HT/%music), room size, budget etc. then we could make specific recommendations for him instead of "speculating" on what would work best. IMHO, then we would see this thread truly progress.

 

[Lewis Besze]

Bob,
for the most part anyone is better off with a separate sub[or two],and larger bookshelf or non powered towers!
I would take for instance a pair of BP30[or even a pair of BP10's] and a pair of Ultras[SVS] with amp and EQ,then a pair of 3000TL's and a single Velo HGS-18.
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"You Hungarians always disagree"

 

[Bob_A]

Bob,
for the most part anyone is better off with a separate sub[or two],and larger bookshelf or non powered towers!
I would take for instance a pair of BP30[or even a pair of BP10's] and a pair of Ultras[SVS] with amp and EQ,then a pair of 3000TL's and a single Velo HGS-18.

Lewis have you actually compared these two proposed setups? Why one setup with SVS and one with VEL? What about using the system with music? With the 3000TL's, you could cross them over at, say, 30Hz with excellent results. What about directional bass cues in movie soundtracks? What about John's findings?

 

[Martice]

Hey Bob. In regards to one of your questions to R & S (Ron & Tom) goes, If all I were interested in was cost effective "feely" bass like the original poster said then any tower speaker would not be a cost effective way of achieving the lowest best quality bass especially with offerings from some of todays internet companies. If you were in a position to where you could be more adventurous with your spending, then I would say for the HT experience, full range which performs well down to at least 50hz is a must have as long as there is a sub in the same room of equal or better quality.
All of the other alternative routes that one may take from having to buy sub/sat systems because of price or space constraints or using tower speakers for the mains and the sub effects without a sub is up to the individual and is a plus for the many people out who can't have the "optimum" setup as it is advertised.
Now I would love to hear a totally full range setup. In my efforts to get closer to totally full range, I am buying two 10" subs offered at Parts Express for $99.00 each for my surrounds.
In closing, I want bass! Ok I admit it! I want the bass to wash over me until my skin wrinkles. I want the bass so deep that I hear the music from Jaws every time I walk in the movie room and that's before I turn it on. I want pure bass. I want my bass so pure that it smells like a virgin. No not Madonna!! More like Britney!! Last but not least, I want loud bass! I want bass so loud that I could calibrate it from my fathers house.
*** The only thing is that my father lives in North Carolina and I'm in Noo YAWK!!!!!!
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What if it gets no better than this!?!

 

[Stacy Huff]

Britney's a VIRGIN?!!

 

[Martice]

Ooops!! Sorry, I'm the Virgin I was talking about!!!

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What if it gets no better than this!?!

 

[Thomas_A]

Lets see... I have been reading this intersting thread now for a couple of days...Ya'll tired yet?
Anyway> I have some powered towers myself,,, I also have some regular towers and some bookshlefs. I have mixed and matched and moved and angled and etc... What I found I like the best are my powered towers with a good sub. I listen to music/ht/tv this way 24/7.... and truely enjoy it. While some towers will extend lower than others...and the use of a sub is very subjective to the listener... One can only find what fits by experimenting.
While I think a powered tower is not necessary in all applications....it fits into many...
anyway.... peace sells....but who's buying ~
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So far, So good, So what
Link Removed
http://thomas2307.homestead.com/thomasworld.html

 

[Bob_A]

Thomas this is great information! The more I think about it, the more I think that powered towers + external subs could be a "superior" setup to the nonpowered equivalent.
Yes powered towers will be more expensive compared to their nonpowered equivalents...but if there is a chance that people will be more happy in the long run, then I say why not? This is why I always recommend getting the "best" mains that you can afford, and then build from there...since most people are forced to use their system for both music and movies, this is something to consider for the long run IMHO.

 

[Bob_M]

Hi Bob
>the more I think that powered towers + external subs could be a "superior" setup to the nonpowered equivalent.<
But in the case you would run your mains large and just use the sub for the LFE, correct?
Bob

 

[Bob_A]

But in the case you would run your mains large and just use the sub for the LFE, correct?

Bob, this may work well...but it seems that crossing the powered tower at, say, 40Hz would be the "ideal" way to do it. John has set up his system this way (see John H's webpage for information about how he set up his 2000TL's). Hubert has the 3000TL's and prefers to cross them at 30Hz.

 

[MatthewJ S]

o.k., my 2 cents...what I find (generally speaking)is that subs seem to sound "better" (Iknow,I know,highly SUB-jective,ha-ha) when you give them a more limited range than the "traditional" 80hz and below area...However as I enjoy somewhat pumped-up bass ,not just @ 20 hz but all the way on up to 40 or 50 hz then it seems to me that it works well when I set my own and other systems up so that the Mains play down @50-60hz and crossover to the sub(s) there...this being the case (Bbb A) THEN i AGREE THAT FULL RANGE TOWERS ARE BETTER THAN BOOKSHELVES AND MAYBE THAT IT WOULD BE HELPFULL TO ALSO (IN SOME CASES) TO USE POWERED TOWERS.Now, because I don't find it too difficult for most non-powered towers to play well down to 50hz, and because in practical applications I don't see (or feel/or measure,for that matter) the reason for the mains to play "one full octave below the crossover point", I question the need to (ussually) spend the extra money on powered towers(or any speaker that overblows bass)--One of the really nice thing about powered subs is the ability they give us to crank up an amp that is NOT connected to the other amps and speakers in a system...my customers who do have powered towers ussually bought them so as to eliminate the need for an out board sub but later found that they could not(without constantly playing with the controls on both the pre/pro or receiver as well as the back of the Mains) achieve the kind of bass they were happy with untill adding an outboard sub....so , the question seems to me to be : If your going to add an outboard sub anyway(in spite of your wife's objections ) would you still shell out the extra dinero for powered towers, or buy a more expensive/better sub?

 

[Martice]

That's one of the points that T & R where trying to establish. Why buy bass twice? It's like buying a receiver and bypassing all of it's amplification with an outboard amp although the way some of these recievers are packed with features it can be cost effective if you really want the processing.
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What if it gets no better than this!?!
[Edited last by Martice on October 28, 2001 at 07:40 AM]

 

[Bob_A]

If your going to add an outboard sub anyway(in spite of your wife's objections ) would you still shell out the extra dinero for powered towers, or buy a more expensive/better sub?

I would definitely still get powered towers. I feel that powered towers + external subs could be a more "pleasing" setup in the long run. If you read carefully through this thread you will see that I have given many reasons why I feel that powered towers can be used very effectively and why they should not be discounted. And if one feels that the near full range capabilities of some powered towers is unnecessary, then you can also say this about any other nonpowered tower which represents a near full range speaker. IMHO, for a setup which will be used for both music and movies, it would be "ideal" to have near full range mains.
That said, not all powered towers are created equally...in some cases, the implementation is not done well...but the "well designed" powered towers are excellent IMHO.

 

[Bob_A]

That's one of the points that T & R where trying to establish. Why buy bass twice?

I think this "point" was a bit too simplistic. If you are using your setup with music, would you NOT want your main speakers to play as low as possible? If you are using your setup with movies, would you NOT want "formidable" bass output from your mains, even if soundtracks include plenty of music and directional cues?
IMHO, in the long run for a music/movie system, one would be most satisfied by buying the "best" main speakers that he can afford, and then adding external woofage when convenient. I am certain that there are many many others who agree with me here.