For years my mother always talked about the RED dress that Scarlet made from her curtains. When she and I saw the film in the 70's re-release she was appalled that they changed the color of the dress. I did not argue with her.
Your "bet"? You would be wrong - and therein lies the problem. Your "bet" is based on what exactly? I have to stop now. Seriously. Here's another riddle-solver. The brown leather chair. Funny that the brown leather chair is RED leather in the older master. Funny that.Mark Booth said:I don't own 'Desk Set' so I was going to refrain from commenting. But, holy cow, it's just about as afflicted with a case of the blues as 'The King and I'!
In Chuck's comparison, go to 1:65... the actress's dress changes from purple (original HD master) to blue (Blu-ray). Figure out what color that dress is SUPPOSED to be and that will solve the riddle! My bet: purple!
Mark
Not to beat dead horses (or cattle) but how do you know it was brown leather. It could very well have been red.haineshisway said:Your "bet"? You would be wrong - and therein lies the problem. Your "bet" is based on what exactly? I have to stop now. Seriously. Here's another riddle-solver. The brown leather chair. Funny that the brown leather chair is RED leather in the older master. Funny that.
I went back and watched that again, as the first time I was concentrating on the skin tones. Yes, the dress looks "wrong" in the blu-ray. Or rather it looks "better" to me in the old transfer. But the skin tones look better. Also, the colors are too hot in the old master, especially the reds that are bleeding. That also tells me there's something amiss in the older transfer.Mark Booth said:I don't own 'Desk Set' so I was going to refrain from commenting. But, holy cow, it's just about as afflicted with a case of the blues as 'The King and I'!
In Chuck's comparison, go to 1:65... the actress's dress changes from purple (original HD master) to blue (Blu-ray). Figure out what color that dress is SUPPOSED to be and that will solve the riddle! My bet: purple!
Mark
How do you know the darker version is the wrong one?Vic Pardo said:Okay, I watched the clips that Chuck posted (thank you, Chuck!) and here's my assessment:
THE KING AND I: the Blu-ray is darker, which makes it less acceptable to me, like they put a dark filter over the image. I like to see what's on the screen.
THE RIVER OF NO RETURN: Blu-ray is definitely darker, definitely a hindrance. I prefer the original.
WILD RIVER: the original HD Master is darker, the Blu-ray is an improvement. The only case like that in this bunch.
DESK SET: the Blu-ray is lighter and brighter, but bluer in a way that doesn't seem right for a Fox Cinemascope movie from 1957. I prefer the original master.
INN OF THE SIXTH HAPPINESS: Blu-ray is definitely darker and bluer, the original is preferable.
CAROUSEL: 2006 is definitely preferable; 2014 is darker and bluer.
I have a vintage 50s/60s metal office desk in my garage John, which at the moment happens to be buried under too many storage boxes to photograph clearly, but it's that classic gun-metal grey...just as seen in the Desk Set Blu-ray. Although some metal desks of the period were a greenish-grey, they were never brown* as they appear throughout the 2006 HD master.JohnMor said:I went back and watched that again, as the first time I was concentrating on the skin tones. Yes, the dress looks "wrong" in the blu-ray. Or rather it looks "better" to me in the old transfer. But the skin tones look better. Also, the colors are too hot in the old master, especially the reds that are bleeding. That also tells me there's something amiss in the older transfer.
The actual hue of that dress before the Studio lighting and color timing came into play.AnthonyClarke said:Now, someone with a really good memory may help with this.
I love the new Blu ray transfer of another Fox title ..... Gentlemen Prefer Blondes. For me, the showstopper is of course Marilyn doing her 'Diamonds are a Girl's Best Friend' number.
And I'm wondering whether anyone here can remember from theatre screenings whether the pink of her dress is the electric pink of the very good DVD transfer, or the much darker and less dramatic pink of the Blu ray. My wife definitely prefers, and I do too, the electric pink of the DVD. But I have no way of knowing which is the 'correct' hue.
I would think that this is such a famous piece of screen history that someone would have a good reference to the exact hue.
I use a calibration disc and do not have any problems with any of films except THE KING AND I. There is a bluer tint and it seems dark as does CAROUSEL. But this may be the way the film stock from Deluxe was used since both were CINEMASCOPE 55. I think the major problem is with the DELUXE Eastman film used and processed.FoxyMulder said:I was going to quote someone but i won't but i will say this, I seriously doubt ANYONE can remember what a film looked like that they saw way back in the sixties, sorry that is pushing the limits of human memory, i don't care if you saw it fifty or a hundred times back in the sixties, it's too long ago to remember all the details, memories play tricks on us all the time.I also wonder how many here use calibration discs to set your television and projectors up and how many use professional ISF calibrators or do it themselves using meters and software ( which is just as good if you know what you are doing ) just using a calibration disc can mean your grayscale and colours are off, you need to use your CMS or it's likely the hue, saturation and lightness of the colours are off, for example red or blue or green may actually be under or over saturated, the hue and lightness could be off resulting in scenes looking less or more blue , lighter or darker blue or a differert shade than the colour is or a multitude of other issues, i speak from experience because i used to just use a calibration disc but you need a proper meter and software if you want those colours spot on, in the ballpark doesn't cut it when we are discussing these things.I see differences just from using my uncalibrated laptop to a calibrated plasma or projector, this has to be taken into account.
The whites of Mr. Peppard's eyes are white and the blue of Mr. Peppard's eyes are blue - not gray as in the older transfer - Mr. Peppard had BLUE eyes, not gray. The uniforms on the older transfer lean to brown. Hmmm. The uniforms on the new transfer on my screen lean to gray. Hmmmm. And Fox had nothing to do with the transfers of Fiddler on the Roof or The Greatest Story Ever Told. A slight misperception on your part, and not the only one, I'm afraid. Oh, and here's a little something you wrote: "Never having seen The Blue Max in theaters I cannot state for certain this isn’t how the movie looked back in 1967; although I can’t imagine so heavy a slant toward teal ever being a part of The Blue Max’s original presentation.Nick*Z said:Fox's Blu-ray output has been a source of great frustration. The Gentlemen Prefer Blondes Blu-ray has other issues as well. Color really doesn't seem quite so extreme and the hot pink dress you refer to in Marilyn's iconic moment is fairly accurately rendered. The previous DVD looks to have bumped contrast by direct comparison. But the Blu-ray has been severely digitally scrubbed. Virtually no grain. True, Technicolor was a grain concealing process, but GPB is waxy.
The King and I is a disaster on Blu-ray. Waaaay too dark and washed out and with the teal bias factored in. It in NO WAY replicates the original theatrical presentation or even the revival print shown at George Eastman back in the mid-1990's. RE: The Blue Max. If you think teal Nazi uniforms and the whites of George Peppard's eyes ought to be robin egg blue - calibration or no calibration, I can't make the blue white (and by the way, the Nazis wore gray, not teal) then I suppose you'll be satisfied with the rest of the titles mentioned in this discussion.
Also, just look at some of Fox's other vintage scope titles that were released to Blu-ray before something decidedly began to go wrong in the video mastering department (Fox's own release of The Robe immediately comes to mind, also TT's Those Magnificent Men and Their Flying Machine, and, Love Is A Many Splendored Thing, plus Criterion's release of Fox's Larger Than Life - NO teal bias, accurate flesh tones, bright, superbly contrasted image, exquisite color delineation and balancing) and then compare these vintage restorations with what you're seeing here and it becomes rather obvious someone is asleep at the controls or simply doesn't care what's going on.
Again, I say this: isn't it interesting that after this latest wave of fiascoes came down the pipeline Fox's output went dormant? Clearly, there's a conversation going on somewhere up the food chain. What are they talking about? Well, I'd like to be optimistic and think it's about these transfers (also, what in the world they're going to do to salvage their pathetic MOD Fox Cinema Archive Collection - another travesty perpetuated by the same studio who gave us West Side Story with a fade out and moire patterns, and Cleopatra from less than ideal archived elements). It's really no surprise Fox has opened themselves up to ridicule on this message board. Their hi-def video output in vintage titles has been SEVERELY spotty at best.
Other screw ups include Fiddler on the Roof, Much Ado About Nothing, The Greatest Story Ever Told and How To Marry a Millionaire. Fox's batting average in hi-def (removing new releases from the equation, of course) is pathetic and that's being extremely kind. Have they had their successes? Absolutely. But they have been fewer and fewer and much farther between. I really can't get excited about Fox Home Video's Blu-ray output or their MOD DVD program. All I can do is shake my head and think about who is minding the store. It doesn't seem like anyone with a healthy respect for classics, that's for darn sure!
Just as a point of reference, I'm watching that scene on blu-ray as I type and, on my television, the dress is still very much purple, though it admittedly runs toward the blue end of the color rather than the red end. The color of the dress is gorgeous and doesn't look nearly as blue as it does in that clip (the back and forth between the master makes the dress look bluer by comparison but when watching it without the comparison it's obviously a rich, lustrous purple.)Mark Booth said:I don't own 'Desk Set' so I was going to refrain from commenting. But, holy cow, it's just about as afflicted with a case of the blues as 'The King and I'!
In Chuck's comparison, go to 1:65... the actress's dress changes from purple (original HD master) to blue (Blu-ray). Figure out what color that dress is SUPPOSED to be and that will solve the riddle! My bet: purple!
Mark