International Sergio Leone Blu-ray thread

OliverK

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I was talking about the general tenor of the posts on the other board - this isn't a secret - go read the, you know, hundreds of pages from the original release. I wasn't referencing Jordan specifically and I think that's pretty obvious.
Then why do you quote Jordan's post when he never said the things you go on about? It is still a straw man argument as indeed even back then there was a lot of discussion about the possibility of changing the color timing but that it would have to be done on a scene by scene basis and it took place both here and on other forums. The funny thing is that if Kino had read the discussion they would have noticed that changing the color from the previous disc would be pretty tricky in so far as a blanket approach will only do so much. The good thing about it might be that with a warmer color temperature preset and increased color saturation on ones display the Kino version may look serviceable for those who prefer the shorter version.


We're all offering opinions here. Oh, and I'm watching with these little things I have called eyeballs - I don't sit there analyzing data or with machines. Is that really what movie watching is like for you? Not me.
As somebody who likes to point out that your display has the correct color and that movies have to be projected with the proper light source I thought you would appreciate the information. You may even have been tempted to think that my display may be misadjusted because I am seeing green that you say isn’t there. And yes, after the adjustments have been done I am watching it with my eyes and I can be sure that when I see a greenish sky it is really and truly on the disc, unfortunately I cannot point it out to you via the internet.
 
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haineshisway

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Who else's post was I going to quote? Sorry, I read many, many pages of posts when the 2014 Blu came out - none of them talked about a scene by scene thing - it was a blanket yellow back then - unless you were on a different board than I was. And even in this current Kino thread there are many posts that STILL call the 2014 urine-soaked and piss-colored and yellow. Only when the caps began arriving did that tune change, at least for the posts I saw. I don't listen when people use terms like "straw man" - that's just a discussion-ender for me, sorry. I'm glad you read different posts than I did, but that does not negate my having read what I've read. But there's no reason to carry this on - I made comments about this new Blu - my opinion. And I made comments about other comments that I found amusing. Such are the ways of discussion board. If you want to be argumentative for no reason, I'm afraid I can't oblige you. I've been watching some really lovely transfers - I'll post about those elsewhere.
 

OliverK

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I am reading this and the other forum but maybe we are reading these threads differently.

There is exactly one post in this thread that is not from you or answering to you that uses the word piss here, that is among 146 posts and it even includes a smiley ;) at the end of the statement in question.
If you choose to concentrate on that you are of course welcome, but to some it may seem like a bit of a limited way of looking at almost 150 posts, many of which make good points or that contain valuable information and/or links to such information.

As for the other forum we have been asked by the moderators not to comment that much on what happens there so I will leave it at that.
 

Danny_N

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I am reading this and the other forum but maybe we are reading these threads differently.

There is exactly one post in this thread that is not from you or answering to you that uses the word piss here, that is among 146 posts and it even includes a smiley ;) at the end of the statement in question.
If you choose to concentrate on that you are of course welcome, but to some it may seem like a bit of a limited way of looking at almost 150 posts, many of which make good points or that contain valuable information and/or links to such information.

As for the other forum we have been asked by the moderators not to comment that much on what happens there so I will leave it at that.
The words urine and/or piss may be only mentioned in this thread by Haineshisway but he is certainly right that some people used those words when the MGM was released in 2014. A simple search on this board will tell you that. I'm not a member of the other dvd forum nor do I follow threads there so I don't know what people said there.

Fact is Kino "de-yellowed" their release . Why do you think they did that?
 

Danny_N

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Kino just bought the rights, this film will be stuck in limbo for whatever time they paid for those rights, awaiting a re-release with the correct edit forever or never.
I assume Kino just has the rights for Region A so who knows, maybe for Region B some other company will pick it up (Arrow for instance).
 

Danny_N

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Again I do not necessarily think that this is the right or perfect look for these movies but certainly the MGM / German versions of the two Dollar movies have more in common with the MGM version of a Fistful of Dynamite.
Aren't you kind of using a straw man argument here ;)?
Anyway, I believe that L'Immagine Ritrovata has now restored all Leone films and no doubt we'll be seeing all of them sooner or later on BD (three of them already are and I believe Kino will be using Ritrovata's restoration for their upcoming A Fistful of Dollars release) in which case all Leone films will more or less have a heterogeneous look again :). And the whole complaints show can start anew.
 
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Allansfirebird

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I think it's worth noting that fans offered to allow Kino to use their original IB Tech prints as reference for the retiming of the remaster but Kino didn't take up their offers.Maybe if Kino did use these as reference then we'd have the most accurate color timing out of all the Blu-rays of TGTBATU. Why blame the fans for a clear mess-up on Kino's part when some of them offered to let Kino use their prints for reference which would have likely yielded much better results?
Pretty sure there are these things called legal contracts that prevent the use of privately-owned prints of a movie the print owners do not have the rights to. Kino is only a third-party distributor in this case, and likely would have to ignore such requests, as would be smart. You want a better version, take it to MGM, since they own the rights. Stop assuming you know more about how all this works than the people who actually deal with film distribution and restoration as their profession, not their hobby.
 

OliverK

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Aren't you kind of using a straw man argument here ;)?
No I am not :) Here is what I wrote in the first post:
The old MGM Blu-ray looked a bit brownish but more like the two Dollar films


Anyway, I believe that L'Immagine Ritrovata has now restored all Leone films and no doubt we'll be seeing all of them sooner or later on BD (three of them already are and I believe Kino will be using Ritrovata's restoration for their upcoming A Fistful of Dollars release) in which case all Leone films will more or less have a heterogeneous look again :). And the whole complaints show can start anew.
I think you meant to write homogeneous but I hope that the look will be a bit more heterogeneous ;)
 

OliverK

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Pretty sure there are these things called legal contracts that prevent the use of privately-owned prints of a movie the print owners do not have the rights to. Kino is only a third-party distributor in this case, and likely would have to ignore such requests, as would be smart. You want a better version, take it to MGM, since they own the rights. Stop assuming you know more about how all this works than the people who actually deal with film distribution and restoration as their profession, not their hobby.
Most studios including MGM do not even have an issue if you screen a collectors print commercially so there is no reason to believe that screening a print from a collector could not have been arranged if Kino had wanted to do this especially given the fact that they were allowed to change the color timing. In fact I would have expected that for a thorough job one would have compared the new color timing against a number of prints.
 

OliverK

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The words urine and/or piss may be only mentioned in this thread by Haineshisway but he is certainly right that some people used those words when the MGM was released in 2014. A simple search on this board will tell you that. I'm not a member of the other dvd forum nor do I follow threads there so I don't know what people said there.
I know that it was used but why drag it again into this thread as an answer to a post that gives a well balanced opinion about issues with the color timing?


Fact is Kino "de-yellowed" their release . Why do you think they did that?
Probably to cater to some complaints that it was too yellow :) The problem is that even back then several forum users (myself included which is why I know) pointed out that an overall color correction for the whole movie would not achieve the desired result so it was not all booohoo it is too yellow even back then.

In my opinion with such a high profile movie Kino may have wanted to try and enlist somebody more knowledgable for the timing to achieve a better result at some additional cost - or keep the timing as is and avoid the controvery.
Together with the rather unnecessary differences in cutting and the extras that run at the wrong speed this unfortunately is not the success that it could have been for Kino.
 
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Danny_N

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I think you meant to write homogeneous ...
Yes, that's what I meant to write.

In fact I would have expected that for a thorough job one would have compared the new color timing against a number of prints.
It may be instructive to re-read Robert Harris' post about the myth of dye transfer printing again: https://www.hometheaterforum.com/co...t-™-the-myth-of-dye-transfer-printing.336967/

Especially:
While a normal, run of the mill, dye transfer print can usually provide a general concept of densities, it cannot be used for color.
Given that fact I can understand why Kino would not use run of the mill prints provided by (unknown) fans for colour correction.

In my opinion with such a high profile movie Kino may have wanted to try and enlist somebody more knowledgable for the timing to achieve a better result at some additional cost - or keep the timing as is and avoid the controvery.
I agree.
 

Lil Brutto

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A year ago we had this very discussion in another thread. I have provided the key quotes below:

Any dye transfer print used as reference is a bit of a fool's errand, unless one has a CORRECT dye transfer print.

While I'm not suggesting that an incorrect use of reference is at fault here, I've made the point before, and will make it again, that there is absolutely nothing that makes a typical dye transfer print magically reference material.

RAH
Thanks for your reply, Robert. I've read your article on the subject. How about if you have 6 dye transfer prints from around the world (US, German and Italian) at your disposal and they all are comparable with each other? On top of that a screening of another US dye transfer print had an image similar to the 6 dye transfer prints. Of course there's some color variability across prints/reels, and even any bias that results from the conversion from analog to digital color space, variability in computer monitors/TVs etc we've yet to see a print source that looks anything like the MGM 4K BD.
Once again, one must take into account that any showing of any dye transfer print that was timed for carbon arc projection has to be seen with that projection, rather than today's Xenon bulbs. If adjustments aren't made for that you're not seeing the print as it was shown back in the day.
The necessary adjustments to correct for the light source have already been made to the scans.

... a total of 7 serving as color references , which at the very least should give an acceptable approximation of what it looked like in theatres in the late 60s.
Robert Harris did not respond to this. I am still interested in hearing what he has to say given that the color timing issue has yet to be rectified and neither the 2014 MGM BD nor the 2017 KL BD have gotten it right.
 

OliverK

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It may be instructive to re-read Robert Harris' post about the myth of dye transfer printing again: https://www.hometheaterforum.com/co...t-™-the-myth-of-dye-transfer-printing.336967/

Especially:

Given that fact I can understand why Kino would not use run of the mill prints provided by (unknown) fans for colour correction.
It would not be perfect for sure but how can it be better not to use even that especially when a number of prints is offered?
I have a bit of a hard time believing that a number of release prints were not more representative of how the movie was supposed to look.
Especially in the absence / unavailability of other infomation that seems to be an issue here.
 

Danny_N

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It seems to me that if Kino had used the fan provided release prints as reference they would have done a half assed job as well. As I understand Robert's post about dye transfer printing and his answer to Lil Brutto, it does not matter how many (1, 5 or 10) run of the mill prints you have, they're simply not reference material. I would imagine that only in the absence of real reference material, release prints come into play.
What we see on the MGM BD was restored by L'Immagine Ritrovata. You may not like their work but they are a professional facility and I have to assume that they, as professionals, follow the work flow that Robert laid out, i.e. they checked real reference material for colour timing. They let Salvati do additional corrections and it might have gone a bit wrong there.
Of course Kino could have tried to get the raw scan and reference material from Cineteca Bologna/ L'Immagine Ritrovata and redo the colour timing from scratch but that would have been much much costlier (if at all possible) than simply de-yellow the MGM master in response to complaints that it was too yellow. Same goes for checking and using 6 run of the mill prints and use them for colour timing a 180 min movie frame by frame, simply de-yellowing the MGM master would be much cheaper.
Given the circumstances they should have left the MGM master alone imo.
 

Lil Brutto

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Robert Harris said that ONE IB TECH print cannot be considered a reliable color reference. I am in agreement. However, until Robert Harris specifically responds to the fact that a total of 7 IB TECH prints have been reviewed and all demonstrate a similar look that is ABSOLUTELY NOT - in terms of colour - represented by any of the BDs released so far, it's inappropriate for you to conclude that "run of the mill" release prints are not reference material.

What do you mean by "run of the mill" anyways?

IB TECH prints are essentially fade proof. They look the same now as they did when they were struck. In essence they're a time capsule. Are you suggesting that a batch of randomly acquired first run IB TECH release prints from around the world did not reflect the filmmaker's artistic intent? That's a bold assertion.

The available elements for this film have been meticulously documented in a book authored by Italian restoration experts over 15 years ago. Their records indicate that there is no "real reference material" for colour timing other than an IB TECH print in the possession of Cineteca Nazionale since 1970. That likely explains why none of the professionals can get it right. All they had to do is what the fans have already done and that is examine the only colour reference source that exists: IB TECH dye transfer prints. They'd have their answer.

Those who debate this issue based on OPINION? Well that's a subjective matter and I respect other's preferences for a particular colour timing even if I don't agree. If you like the Mondo BD? Great. The 2014 MGM BD? All the power to you. The recent KL BD? Enjoy. We are bringing evidence to the discussion and I encourage anyone else - whether you agree or disagree with our position - to do the same. Arguments based on memory etc add absolutely nothing to the debate.
 
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Jordan Krug

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Interestingly, we can look at the case of FOD, and see how it compares to GBU since the ripleys home video italian restoration team (2007) disputed the recent cannes version "restored" and recolored by l'immagine ritrovata in 2014, which now has the SAME yellow/green cast.) The ripleys version was more color neutral, and ripleys claims THEIR reference prints look exactly like their blu and nothing like ritrovata's.

Here is my condensed post on the topic, taken from the blu ray forum.

Stills of ritrovata "restoration":

http://distribuzione.ilcinemaritrova...gno-di-dollari

However comparing these stills to the ones that appeared on Italian news websites (from which I pulled that one reference still - see below the same set of stills), and Cineteca di Bologna's facebook, there seems to be a difference in the gamma and amount of green:

http://www.cineblog.it/post/415333/p...ema-restaurata

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?...2863131&type=1

...the ones directly from ritrovato don't seem to have the same gamma shift and appear slightly less green/yellow although they still lean towards that colour. The same slight shift in gamma happened when ritrovato posted stills of their GBU restoration vs what MGM eventually released.

(As seen here):

http://imgur.com/qRI001B

To further complicate things, this clip was released at the time of the 2014 Italian theatrical release - heavily compressed etc, but it appears to be from the 2014 restoration and not the 2007. It seems washed out but the skies still seem more teal than blue. (in my opinion).

http://video.repubblica.it/dossier/c.../165118/163609

This video also features clips from the 2014 restoration at the beginning and end:


In 2014, Ripley's home video shed some light on their 2007 restoration and why they felt the 2014 restoration wasn't necessary.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/riple...52425272305056

This was ritrovato's response to the re-restoration controversy (in Italian):

http://corrieredibologna.corriere.it...63958208.shtml

So here you have two professional restoration teams disputing the color....
 

Lord Dalek

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Its funny, who would have guessed that 1492 would not be the most borked thing Kino Lorber would do all year.

I think this thread is a nice preview of what will happen when Disney finally releases the original versions of the first Star Wars trilogy.
Oh those fans won't be happy until its a digital transfer from a faded spliced up print with cigarette burns every five minutes and a warped soundtrack.
 
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PMF

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Well, if two professional restoration teams are in dispute, then all within this thread should now break bread and make peace with each other.
We're all going to drive ourselves crazy on the present minutia.
Let's go forward.
Don't get me wrong. If the addressed corrections can truly be executed, then I am all for it; but if two restoration teams remain in disputation, then let's leave poor Kino alone for their current distribution.
Forward means tracking down and putting together an international round table of restoration experts, the Leone family and maybe even Clint Eastwood, himself.
Raised monies will also be needed to achieve the cited lists of corrections; but from whom?
 
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Lord Dalek

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The best restoration so far has been one with no input from any other party. That being The Film Foundation's release of Once Upon a Time in the West. Because lord knows why we need an endless argument about how long it should take Charles Bronson to get up after being shot in the arm. :blink:
 

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