International Sergio Leone Blu-ray thread

Danny_N

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Robert Harris said that ONE IB TECH print cannot be considered a reliable color reference.
No in Robert's answer you quoted he said: "ANY dye transfer print used as reference is a bit of a fool's errand, unless one has a CORRECT dye transfer print."

There's no way of telling if your 7 dye transfer prints are correct unless you would check them against the reference. Have you done that?

What do you mean by "run of the mill" anyways?
Re-read Robert Harris' original post about dye transfer printing, it's coming from there.

IB TECH prints are essentially fade proof. They look the same now as they did when they were struck. In essence they're a time capsule. Are you suggesting that a batch of randomly acquired first run IB TECH release prints from around the world did not reflect the filmmaker's artistic intent? That's a bold assertion.
Re-read Robert Harris' original post about dye transfer printing.

The available elements for this film have been meticulously documented in a book authored by Italian restoration experts over 15 years ago. Their records indicate that there is no "real reference material" for colour timing other than an IB TECH print in the possession of Cineteca Nazionale since 1970. That likely explains why none of the professionals can get it right. All they had to do is what the fans have already done and that is examine the only colour reference source that exists: IB TECH dye transfer prints. They'd have their answer.
I take it you have checked your 7 prints against the print that is in possession of Cineteca Nazionale?
Maybe a reality check is in order. I assume you're a passionate fan with no real experience in film restoration? Just like me basically :). Except I don't claim to know it better than well respected professionals.

Those who debate this issue based on OPINION? Well that's a subjective matter and I respect other's preferences for a particular colour timing even if I don't agree. If you like the Mondo BD? Great. The 2014 MGM BD? All the power to you. The recent KL BD? Enjoy. We are bringing evidence to the discussion and I encourage anyone else - whether you agree or disagree with our position - to do the same. Arguments based on memory etc add absolutely nothing to the debate.
I haven't got a clue what you are trying to say or proof here. Are you saying your opinion isn't a opinion but the absolute truth?
 
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Danny_N

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... the recent cannes version "restored" and recolored by l'immagine ritrovata in 2014, which now has the SAME yellow/green cast ...
Yep, that's what I told Oliver earlier in the thread, and I believe Kino plans to use this restoration for their upcoming BD ...
Start looking for dye transfer prints I'd say.

I find this all a bit silly. It reminds of all the complaints about teal looking CinemaScope movies from the fifties. All these professional and well respected film restorers haven't got a clue what they're doing apparently. I have my doubts sometimes about what I see but in the end I realize I'm not the professional but just a film fan with amateur knowledge.
 
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Lil Brutto

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Robert Harris says any PRINT (singular). He does not address the issue of MULTIPLE dye transfer prints as a colour reference.

Anyways, it's fine with me if you choose to simply dismiss compelling evidence from 7 dye transfer prints. As I already mentioned above there is no magical colour reference for this film according to the available literature from the professionals but you choose to ignore that crucial point.

Danny_N, it's clear that you fall into the group of OPINION. Please bring EVIDENCE to support your argument and I'll be happy to respond. Until then I'll patiently wait for Robert Harris to respond to my question from last year.
 

haineshisway

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I am reading this and the other forum but maybe we are reading these threads differently.

There is exactly one post in this thread that is not from you or answering to you that uses the word piss here, that is among 146 posts and it even includes a smiley ;) at the end of the statement in question.
If you choose to concentrate on that you are of course welcome, but to some it may seem like a bit of a limited way of looking at almost 150 posts, many of which make good points or that contain valuable information and/or links to such information.

As for the other forum we have been asked by the moderators not to comment that much on what happens there so I will leave it at that.
Okay, now we're into gaslight territory, my friend. I wasn't talking about THIS board I was talking about the endless posts on the other board that consistently and to a certain extent even now reference yellow mess, piss, urine-soaked - but especially when the 2014 disc was issued. To deny it is kind of silly - and Danny is right - those kinds of epithets were referenced here back then, too, but mostly just parroting what was being said elsewhere.
 

Lil Brutto

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I take it you have checked your 7 prints against the print that is in possession of Cineteca Nazionale?
Actually, the full torture scene that is available as an extra on the MGM BD is sourced from the Cineteca Nazionale print. The image is comparable with 2 Italian IB TECH prints from 1966 that are in collector's hands.
 

Billy Batson

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I find this all a bit silly. It reminds of all the complaints about teal looking CinemaScope movies from the fifties. All these professional and well respected film restorers haven't got a clue what they're doing apparently. I have my doubts sometimes about what I see but in the end I realize I'm not the professional but just a film fan with amateur knowledge.
I wouldn't say all these professional & well respected restorers (well some well respected, others, who knows?) haven't got a clue what they're doing, but I wouldn't take what they're doing as gospel either. I'd think many of the colourists working on these restorations weren't even born when these films were shown in cinemas (& that could go for some of the restorers as well). I'm retired now, but I did spend a working life as a colour grader (timer) in a film lab & a telecine colourist in many companies, & I'm not saying that I know best (well I do know what's best for me), but I know enough to know they're not always right. Saying this, I think most Blu-rays of catalogue films look wonderful, we really are spoiled rotten.
 
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Danny_N

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I wouldn't say all these professional & well respected restorers (well some well respected, others, who knows?) haven't got a clue what they're doing, but I wouldn't take what they're doing as gospel either. I'd think many of the colourists working on these restorations weren't even born when these films were shown in cinemas (& that could go for some of the restorers as well). I'm retired now, but I did spend a working life as a colour grader (timer) in a film lab & a telecine colourist in many companies, & I'm not saying that I know best (well I do know what's best for me), but I know enough to know they're not always right. Saying this, I think most Blu-rays of catalogue films look wonderful, we really are spoiled rotten.
You're absolutely right but that doesn't mean that the average film fan that posts on dvd forums knows better.

I think the first time I saw The Good, The Bad And The Ugly was on a small 22 inch black and white tv. And I enjoyed it. We are indeed spoiled rotten.
 

Lil Brutto

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I'm honoured :P. I never claimed anything else.
I generally trust professionals and their knowledge. You are not a professional.
You're right. I'm not a professional. I have a day job that's in a very different field.

This is a collaborative effort that includes professionals who are actively working in the industry and they applaud our enthusiasm. They offer their expertise when needed and provide valuable insight. That's the strength of teamwork, every member brings something to the table.

What do I bring? Tenacity and the skills from my day job that have helped us seek out and acquire the IB TECH prints for examination, as well as the ability to reconcile (sometimes conflicting) information that we've gathered from multiple sources for the past decade or so. Also, the fact that I am NOT a professional in this industry makes it fun and keeps me motivated because I don't rely on this work to support my family. It's a hobby and an expensive one at that. When I take a much needed break from my "real job" this project is one of my outlets.

So what's your point?
 

Jordan Krug

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I'm a professional editor, I make a living working in television and films, so at least you can rely on my edit observations. :) on the periphery of that job I have sat in many, many high end color suites for hours on end. I am not a colorist but I understand enough about it to make informed observations. Lil brutto has studied the film extensively for the last two years. Whoever did the color on the Kino probably did it in a single day...professional or not I'll attest to the fact that Brutto knows his stuff when it comes to GBU, and he's very scientific when it comes to the color of the film.
 

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Okay, now we're into gaslight territory, my friend. I wasn't talking about THIS board I was talking about the endless posts on the other board that consistently and to a certain extent even now reference yellow mess, piss, urine-soaked - but especially when the 2014 disc was issued. To deny it is kind of silly - and Danny is right - those kinds of epithets were referenced here back then, too, but mostly just parroting what was being said elsewhere.
Oh well, I think this little side discussion could have been avoided then if you wouldn't have quoted Jordan in your post.
There is a reason I post mostly here so I do not follow everything over there that much, too much drama for the high profile releases.
 
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OliverK

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All these professional and well respected film restorers haven't got a clue what they're doing apparently. I have my doubts sometimes about what I see but in the end I realize I'm not the professional but just a film fan with amateur knowledge.
You know that all the numerous prints over the years, LD's, VHS , DVD and other Blu-ray editions were also produced by professionals, right? Even within the color space available to laserdisc or DVD one could have produced a look very similar to the MGM Blu-ray but for some reason these look very different, as does the Italian Blu-ray as Jordan pointed out which also seems to have been compared to that magical reference print in Italy.
Add to that other professional work done on Patton, Spartacus and others and you may understand that many fans or amateurs as you say do not have the same trust in professionals as you seem to have.
 

OliverK

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Actually, the full torture scene that is available as an extra on the MGM BD is sourced from the Cineteca Nazionale print. The image is comparable with 2 Italian IB TECH prints from 1966 that are in collector's hands.
Thanks for pointing that out. Somebody should post a few screencaps to show the difference. It is substantial with a lot more green in the MGM version. If that was their reference print than they failed to capture its look by a wide margin at least for this scene.
 

Danny_N

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Whoever did the color on the Kino probably did it in a single day...
Probably true. I never defended the Kino. I have defended the MGM and still stand by my words that it is not as bad as some people make it out to be.

You know that all the numerous prints over the years, LD's, VHS , DVD and other Blu-ray editions were also produced by professionals, right? Even within the color space available to laserdisc or DVD one could have produced a look very similar to the MGM Blu-ray but for some reason these look very different, as does the Italian Blu-ray as Jordan pointed out which also seems to have been compared to that magical reference print in Italy.
Add to that other professional work done on Patton, Spartacus and others and you may understand that many fans or amateurs as you say do not have the same trust in professionals as you seem to have.
Funny, when I say "All these professional and well respected film restorers" it should be clear that I'm talking about professionals in the film restoration business specifically, you know people like Robert Harris, Torsten Kaiser, the people at L'Imaggine Ritrovata etc, people who do this for a living and not as a hobby.

Are you saying that professional film restorers like that are responsible for the DNR mess of the earlier BD's of Patton and Spartacus?
Proof please.
 

Lil Brutto

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Funny, when I say "All these professional and well respected film restorers" it should be clear that I'm talking about professionals in the film restoration business specifically, you know people like...Torsten Kaiser...
At the outset of this project Torsten Kaiser reached out and gave me valuable advice. We spoke on the phone for about an hour. Aside from being an expert he is a very nice guy and generous with his time.
 
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OliverK

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Funny, when I say "All these professional and well respected film restorers" it should be clear that I'm talking about professionals in the film restoration business specifically, you know people like Robert Harris, Torsten Kaiser, the people at L'Imaggine Ritrovata etc, people who do this for a living and not as a hobby.

Sorry, I misunderstood, no I did not mean Torsten kaiser or Robert Harris. Regarding L'Imagine Ritrovata I do not know that much about them except that they do work on Leone movies that sparks a discussion or two ;) And another Italian team that worked on TGTBATU publicy disputes their restoration as has been pointed out by Jordan. On the other hand the MGM disc also seems to deviate from the caps posted by L'Imagine Ritrovata themselves so they did probably not supervise the final grade for the Blu-ray in the first place.

Torsten Kaiser has by the way posted regraded screenshots of the MGM Blu-ray of TGTBATU, so he does not seem to agree with how it looks either:
http://cinefacts-forum.kino.de/atta...esserte-deutsche-tonspur-gbu_ibtechdtcorr.jpg



Are you saying that professional film restorers like that are responsible for the DNR mess of the earlier BD's of Patton and Spartacus?
Proof please.
No I am not and you probably know that, too. Neither RAH nor Torsten Kaiser or George Feltenstein have worked on any of the hotly disputed Blu-ray titles over here like this one, some of the Fox scope movies, The King and I, the first Patton or the first Spartacus. HTV/Illuminate worked on the first Spartacus Blu-ray by the way and also on Patton if you'd like to know.

So this is not an attack on anybody but some food for thought regarding the concept that professionals who work with film for a living always know what they do and that the result of their work is always beyond reproach because they are not "amateurs" or "fans". Not every professional who does grading or color timing is on the same level nor does any project have the scope in manpower, time or budget that would allow a perfect outcome every time a catalog title gets released, sometimes a lot less will have to do and sometimes things go wrong.
 

Danny_N

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At the outset of this project Torsten Kaiser reached out and gave me valuable advice. We spoke on the phone for about an hour. Aside from being an expert he is a very nice guy and generous with his time.
That's all very nice but it doesn't say anything about anything. Look, I appreciate what you're doing, I think I even introduced your work here on the forum, but it doesn't convince me that you are absolutely right and the people at L'Immagine Ritrovita are absolutely wrong. I'm not going to repeat my reasons ad nauseam, I don't post much here, it's easy to look up my comments in the other threads (and if you don't want to, that's fine as well of course).
 

Lil Brutto

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You're entitled to your OPINION. Let's just leave it at that. I'm more interested in discussions about FACTS.
 

Danny_N

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Sorry, I misunderstood
That's nice.

So this is not an attack on anybody but some food for thought regarding the concept that professionals who work with film for a living always know what they do and that the result of their work is always beyond reproach because they are not "amateurs" or "fans". Not every professional who does grading or color timing is on the same level nor does any project have the scope in manpower, time or budget that would allow a perfect outcome every time a catalog title gets released, sometimes a lot less will have to do and sometimes things go wrong.
Well, that didn't last long. I guess I'm naive, fine by me.

I'm not going to respond any further, I should have known where this was going when the term straw man was first introduced in this thread. I've said all I have to say about TGTBTU, 50's CinemaScope etc. here and in other threads. I'll stand on the side lines when Kino releases its BD of AFOD and just watch in amusement like I usually do.
 

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