International Sergio Leone Blu-ray thread

OliverK

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The old MGM Blu-ray looked a bit brownish but more like the two Dollar films so if the Leone westerns were supposed to look similar (and the two dollar films and OUATITW do have similar color timing) then the MGM Blu-ray is closer to what it should look despite being from an older master. On a personal level I find the caps of the new Italian version extremely warm and it also seems to have clipped whites.

Here is a comparison that illustrates this pretty well:
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=1&x=487&y=206&d1=3713&d2=4957&s1=34368&s2=46173&l=0&i=1&go=1

There seems to be a lot of controvery about the two last films of his Once Upon... trilogy and TGTBATU both with regard to color timing and also cuts - I guess everybody can pick and choose the look that he likes with so many versions offered especially for TGTBATU.
 
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Jordan Krug

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Well, I wish I could say the news was good, at least from my perspective, but alas... So, let me accentuate the positive first: It's great to have to not watch the horrid "extended" version again. So, what are we left with? Well, in making the mistake of listening to the nuttiness about the 2014 Blu, which, as I've stated many times here that I had no real major problems with, they removed color that in my opinion didn't need removing. I never found it to be urine soaked or piss-soaked or whatever other charming phrases were bandied about. Not one of the screen caps resembled the color I saw on my TV, so maybe on the computer it all looks teal and yellow, but not when actually viewed and again I say if anyone is telling me they are not seeing actual blue (not teal) skies in the shot, for example, with the young boy on the donkey at the well, then people have their settings set to wonky this-is-my-personal settings-preference mode. Because the sky in those shots are as blue as blue gets. Also, this blanket urine-soaked tint - explain to me at about nineteen minutes in in the beautiful night shot of the town in which there is not one OUNCE of yellow - where'd it go? Of course, the new mantra now, the revisionist posting NOW is that the 2014 wasn't really that bad and only certain shots needed to be adjusted. Funny how tunes change.

In any case, Kino did listen, a mistake I hope they've learned to never repeat - you cannot win going down that rabbit hole - there is NO winning. But instead they've sucked much of the life out of the image. Oh, certain folks think THIS is the way the film should look - flat. No Leone film ever looked flat. So, for me this is a disappointment as I really wished they'd left it alone so I could enjoy the shorter cut with the 2014 transfer and its color. I actually feel really bad for Mr. Lime - he got swept up in chat board chat and the result is this release was compromised. Believe me, I wanted to come on here and say, "Guess what - it's pretty good." But I can't. I'm glad some think this is preferable - I don't. I liked the 2014 Blu-ray. And that's my two centimes for whatever it's worth. And golly gee I hope none of this seems like bullying - you know, stating my opinion - and I sure do hope I haven't driven off any industry insiders - and yes, that's what I'm being rather ridiculously accused of - exactly WHICH industry insider I supposedly drove off is something I cannot begin to figure out. Maybe someone can enlighten me :)
As I've said before, the 2014 was corrected scene by scene, so certain scenes are better than others in terms of color. It's mostly the outdoor scenes that seem overdone. Absolutely, there are scenes with blue skies, and there are also scenes with green skies. There are scenes with green teeth and green union uniforms. You personally don't think it's too yellow/green, but it's hard to ague against the fact that the majority of people out there do. Do I personally think it's piss soaked etc all the way through? No, but the yellow/green is overdone in a LOT of scenes, and the film is needlessly dark/crushed in spots, especially during scenes like the beating.

It's pretty obvious that Kino did a blanket yellow remove over the whole thing, instead of a scene by scene correction. They left the overdone green in, AND they decreased the black levels across the board. They removed all the yellow without compensating for the saturation loss. Some scenes needed it so those look better, other scenes were fine in the 2014 (mostly indoor scenes) so now those look terrible.

Why is the fan's fault that Kino went about the process of re-color correcting half-assed and obviously didn't know what the hell they were doing? We all assumed they would hire a professional to do the work and not just slap some blanket filters over the whole cut. Even fans who have attempted to fix the yellow/green issue went scene by scene and their results were significantly better than Kino's. And they were working from a compressed source! It's pretty obvious no one at Kino actually checked the discs as I can't see how they thought the new color looked better throughout. Nor did they check the majority of the extras as even the 1080 material was converted to 15fps and back again??!! Try to watch the American trailer on this new disc vs the 2014 - they took a perfectly fine extra and ruined it. The qc on this release is laughable.

The fans asked Kino to address a problem. It may not have been a problem for YOU, but again, the majority of people out there thought it was too yellow/green. Kino has shown they were incapable of doing the job properly, or were unwilling to pay someone actually qualified. I agree, it's pretty sad to have this release be so bungled.
 
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Danny_N

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Oliver, I don't see any clipped whites in that shot to be honest. Sure it's a lot brighter than the MGM but they're standing in the Mexican desert in full sunshine in the middle of the day. The MGM looks like it was shot on a winter's day with dawn approaching in comparison.
I can see clipped whites on the MGM though ;). Take a look at this comparison: http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a=0&d1=3713&d2=4957&s1=34369&s2=46174&i=2&l=0
If you're not too distracted by James Coburn's sickly looking face on the MGM you'll notice that the white of his coat is clipped.

You're right, and I don't want to start another controversy, everybody can pick and choose what they want. For me it's the Italian BD without doubt. It may look extremely warm but only in direct comparison with the MGM. On its own it looks very natural, with better resolved grain and much better colour.
 

smithbrad

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It's pretty obvious that Kino did a blanket yellow remove over the whole thing, instead of a scene by scene correction. They left the overdone green in, AND they decreased the black levels across the board. They removed all the yellow without compensating for the saturation loss. Some scenes needed it so those look better, other scenes were fine in the 2014 (mostly indoor scenes) so now those look terrible.

Why is the fan's fault that Kino went about the process of re-color correcting half-assed and obviously didn't know what the hell they were doing? We all assumed they would hire a professional to do the work and not just slap some blanket filters over the whole cut. Even fans who have attempted to fix the yellow/green issue went scene by scene and their results were significantly better than Kino's. And they were working from a compressed source! It's pretty obvious no one at Kino actually checked the discs as I can't see how they thought the new color looked better throughout.

The fans asked Kino to address a problem. It may not have been a problem for YOU, but again, the majority of people out there thought it was too yellow/green. Kino has shown they were incapable of doing the job properly, or were unwilling to pay someone actually qualified. I agree, it's pretty sad to have this release be so bungled.
More likely it is just that Kino had no budget to do a scene by scene color correction or to hire an outside source to do it. You have to consider that the budget was most likely "set in stone" the minute they bid on it and color correction and edits beyond what they had scoped weren't in those plans. They tried to accommodate some user complaints with the previous release. In the end, as for the edits and color, they were in a no-win scenario. A broad-brush approach is probably all they could support. My guess is that the average consumer will be fine with the new release. The die-hards weren't going to be satisfied regardless of the approach they took due to the inherent issues in the master they received and the likely budget constraints.
 
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Lord Dalek

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The "average consumer" is irrelevant. This is Kino we're talking about here. Their stuff is only available at boutique b&ms and the Internet, not a big box like Wal-Mart. The "average consumer" likely will have no idea this release exists or won't care that it does.
 
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Allansfirebird

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The "average consumer" is irrelevant. This is Kino we're talking about here. Their stuff is only available at boutique b&ms and the Internet, not a big box like Wal-Mart. The "average consumer" likely will have no idea this release exists or won't care that it does.
The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly isn't the typical kind of catalog title, however. It's one of the most well-known movies of all-time - I'm pretty sure the title visibility alone will increase the audience for this release.
 
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Lord Dalek

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The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly isn't the typical kind of catalog title, however. It's one of the most well-known movies of all-time - I'm pretty sure the title visibility alone will increase the audience for this release.
If Fox was pressing the discs maybe... but they're not, so that means limited quantities and low distribution.

Kino may have been around for 50 years but, like Criterion, they're not one of the big boys.
 

Allansfirebird

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If Fox was pressing the discs maybe... but they're not, so that means limited quantities and low distribution.

Kino may have been around for 50 years but, like Criterion, they're not one of the big boys.
None of your points address my original point - the notability of the movie itself likely means people buying copies of the film won't just be the hardcore classic cinema fans like you or I. I wasn't talking about the amount of copies produced.
 

smithbrad

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The "average consumer" is irrelevant. This is Kino we're talking about here. Their stuff is only available at boutique b&ms and the Internet, not a big box like Wal-Mart. The "average consumer" likely will have no idea this release exists or won't care that it does.
Wholeheartedly disagree...plenty of "average consumers" shop Amazon (big box internet) for their movies. Especially, given that most of the b&m's have limited selection. Anyone searching for TGTBATU will undoubtedly find the Kino release which is prominently on display as the latest release, and with a 80% positive rating with over 2000 reviews, thanks to the way Amazon combines products. As Sean stated, this is notable film that most average people know about. This isn't a "B" SciFi or Noir release by Kino.
 
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PMF

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Anyone interested in the specific differences between the original 1967 international cut of G.B.U. and Kino's shorter cut can find the information here:

http://theeditroomfloor.blogspot.ca/2017/08/the-gbu-kino-disc-has-arrived.html
Who, then; be it in the U.S. or Leone Country; can offer both a resulting and definitive solution?
Is there one person with both the available financing and the follow through connections that can ever bring this film to its final peace?
 
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Jordan Krug

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Who, then; be it in the U.S. or Leone Country; can offer both a resulting and definitive solution?
Is there one person with both the available financing and the follow through connections that can ever bring this film to its final peace?
I think the only hope would be criterion.
 
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UHDvision

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Kino just bought the rights, this film will be stuck in limbo for whatever time they paid for those rights, awaiting a re-release with the correct edit forever or never.
 
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haineshisway

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As I've said before, the 2014 was corrected scene by scene, so certain scenes are better than others in terms of color. It's mostly the outdoor scenes that seem overdone. Absolutely, there are scenes with blue skies, and there are also scenes with green skies. There are scenes with green teeth and green union uniforms. You personally don't think it's too yellow/green, but it's hard to ague against the fact that the majority of people out there do. Do I personally think it's piss soaked etc all the way through? No, but the yellow/green is overdone in a LOT of scenes, and the film is needlessly dark/crushed in spots, especially during scenes like the beating.

It's pretty obvious that Kino did a blanket yellow remove over the whole thing, instead of a scene by scene correction. They left the overdone green in, AND they decreased the black levels across the board. They removed all the yellow without compensating for the saturation loss. Some scenes needed it so those look better, other scenes were fine in the 2014 (mostly indoor scenes) so now those look terrible.

Why is the fan's fault that Kino went about the process of re-color correcting half-assed and obviously didn't know what the hell they were doing? We all assumed they would hire a professional to do the work and not just slap some blanket filters over the whole cut. Even fans who have attempted to fix the yellow/green issue went scene by scene and their results were significantly better than Kino's. And they were working from a compressed source! It's pretty obvious no one at Kino actually checked the discs as I can't see how they thought the new color looked better throughout. Nor did they check the majority of the extras as even the 1080 material was converted to 15fps and back again??!! Try to watch the American trailer on this new disc vs the 2014 - they took a perfectly fine extra and ruined it. The qc on this release is laughable.

The fans asked Kino to address a problem. It may not have been a problem for YOU, but again, the majority of people out there thought it was too yellow/green. Kino has shown they were incapable of doing the job properly, or were unwilling to pay someone actually qualified. I agree, it's pretty sad to have this release be so bungled.
As I said, this is all revisionist and recent posting. When the 2014 disc came out no one talked about scene by scene color correction but everyone did say urine-soaked and piss color. Then that all changed recently to "It wasn't so bad, just certain scenes." And it changed AFTER all the begging Kino to take the urine and piss away - not certain shots, just take it away. They did - they shouldn't have. I see no green skies in this transfer. I have never seen green skies or green teeth, and to say "majority of people" when the denizens of a particular message board were the ones spreading this mantra everywhere they could - those denizens are no one's majority. They are, in fact, a tiny minority. What would have happened with Bird With the Crystal Plumage if all those people complaining about bad screen caps and preferring, based on those caps, other home video releases - what would have happened had they done that moaning prior to the release and Shout Factory had listened? Well, we wouldn't have the rather perfect transfer we have. And where are all those endless complainers now, now that the disc has been raved about everywhere? Gone with the wind.

It's the fan's fault because they berated Kino endlessly to remove the yellow. Mr. Lime, in frustration, finally came on that board and said he'd done exactly what everyone wanted and he did. Because at the time no one knew what exactly Kino was doing, just that they'd listened and were doing some corrections. But in those earlier days it was all get rid of the urine and piss tint - NOT get rid of just those few scenes that had too much yellow, and many of those doing the loudest yelling, BTW, had not ever actually purchased the 2014 Blu-ray - it was all based on viewing screen caps.

In the end, this release is not what it should be. I would have been perfectly happy if they'd left it alone so I could enjoy the close to theatrical cut. So, yes, I personally, IMO, blame the "fans." Sorry.
 
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OliverK

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Oliver, I don't see any clipped whites in that shot to be honest. Sure it's a lot brighter than the MGM but they're standing in the Mexican desert in full sunshine in the middle of the day. The MGM looks like it was shot on a winter's day with dawn approaching in comparison.
I can see clipped whites on the MGM though ;). Take a look at this comparison: http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?go=1&a=0&d1=3713&d2=4957&s1=34369&s2=46174&i=2&l=0
If you're not too distracted by James Coburn's sickly looking face on the MGM you'll notice that the white of his coat is clipped.

You're right, and I don't want to start another controversy, everybody can pick and choose what they want. For me it's the Italian BD without doubt. It may look extremely warm but only in direct comparison with the MGM. On its own it looks very natural, with better resolved grain and much better colour.
Danny, I am not in love with the MGM version I am just saying that it looks more like the first two dollar movies. Imo the MGM version looks harsh, cropped and not that much like film but the Italian version should make much more out of being from a much more recent master. I think that something in between the MGM and the Italian version would be nice with regard to both contrast and color timing.

Regarding your winter's day remark: There is detail missing in Ron Steiger's jacket in the cap I posted and it looks very hot in general. If you put it like that it also applies to the dollar films that overall seem rather dark, see for example these caps:
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?d1=9514&d2=9510&s1=92063&s2=92008&i=9&l=0&a=1
http://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=1&x=398&y=137&d1=9513&d2=9509&s1=92059&s2=91998&l=0&i=0&go=1

Again I do not necessarily think that this is the right or perfect look for these movies but certainly the MGM / German versions of the two Dollar movies have more in common with the MGM version of a Fistful of Dynamite.
 

OliverK

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As I said, this is all revisionist and recent posting. When the 2014 disc came out no one talked about scene by scene color correction but everyone did say urine-soaked and piss color. Then that all changed recently to "It wasn't so bad, just certain scenes." And it changed AFTER all the begging Kino to take the urine and piss away - not certain shots, just take it away. They did - they shouldn't have. I see no green skies in this transfer. I have never seen green skies or green teeth, and to say "majority of people" when the denizens of a particular message board were the ones spreading this mantra everywhere they could - those denizens are no one's majority. They are, in fact, a tiny minority. What would have happened with Bird With the Crystal Plumage if all those people complaining about bad screen caps and preferring, based on those caps, other home video releases - what would have happened had they done that moaning prior to the release and Shout Factory had listened? Well, we wouldn't have the rather perfect transfer we have. And where are all those endless complainers now, now that the disc has been raved about everywhere? Gone with the wind.

It's the fan's fault because they berated Kino endlessly to remove the yellow. Mr. Lime, in frustration, finally came on that board and said he'd done exactly what everyone wanted and he did. Because at the time no one knew what exactly Kino was doing, just that they'd listened and were doing some corrections. But in those earlier days it was all get rid of the urine and piss tint - NOT get rid of just those few scenes that had too much yellow, and many of those doing the loudest yelling, BTW, had not ever actually purchased the 2014 Blu-ray - it was all based on viewing screen caps.

In the end, this release is not what it should be. I would have been perfectly happy if they'd left it alone so I could enjoy the close to theatrical cut. So, yes, I personally, IMO, blame the "fans." Sorry.
From Wikipedia: The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.[2][3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Here is what Jordan wrote in April, long before this disc was released:
https://theeditroomfloor.blogspot.de/2017/04/current-issues-with-good-bad-and-ugly_59.html

Maybe you can point out to us the sequences where Jordan writes about "urine soaked and piss color" as I cannot find them, in fact I searched the whole page and could neither find the words "urine" nor "soaked" nor "piss".

By the way I saw greenish skies on the MGM on my ISF calibrated system and no, they are not there in every scene. I could show you a report of my front projection system that has been calibrated to D65 REC709 color space with a gamma of 2.3 and an average dE of less than 1.0 with a Jeti 1501 reference grade spectroradiometer and Basiccolor Discus colorimeter.
 
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As I said, this is all revisionist and recent posting. When the 2014 disc came out no one talked about scene by scene color correction but everyone did say urine-soaked and piss color. Then that all changed recently to "It wasn't so bad, just certain scenes." And it changed AFTER all the begging Kino to take the urine and piss away - not certain shots, just take it away. They did - they shouldn't have. I see no green skies in this transfer. I have never seen green skies or green teeth, and to say "majority of people" when the denizens of a particular message board were the ones spreading this mantra everywhere they could - those denizens are no one's majority. They are, in fact, a tiny minority. What would have happened with Bird With the Crystal Plumage if all those people complaining about bad screen caps and preferring, based on those caps, other home video releases - what would have happened had they done that moaning prior to the release and Shout Factory had listened? Well, we wouldn't have the rather perfect transfer we have. And where are all those endless complainers now, now that the disc has been raved about everywhere? Gone with the wind.

It's the fan's fault because they berated Kino endlessly to remove the yellow. Mr. Lime, in frustration, finally came on that board and said he'd done exactly what everyone wanted and he did. Because at the time no one knew what exactly Kino was doing, just that they'd listened and were doing some corrections. But in those earlier days it was all get rid of the urine and piss tint - NOT get rid of just those few scenes that had too much yellow, and many of those doing the loudest yelling, BTW, had not ever actually purchased the 2014 Blu-ray - it was all based on viewing screen caps.

In the end, this release is not what it should be. I would have been perfectly happy if they'd left it alone so I could enjoy the close to theatrical cut. So, yes, I personally, IMO, blame the "fans." Sorry.
Your claims can easily be proven false by simply taking a cursory look at forum threads from around the time the remastered Blu-ray was released in 2014. There were numerous posts complaining about the colors changing from shot to shot and scene to scene indicating that the "piss tint" wasn't completely consistent. Quotes from a forum when the 2014 disc was just released:

"If there's a problem with the colours, it the lack of consistency. You can play a game of 'What colour is Eastwood's coat?". "

"Another thing I find troubling is that when they have blown up the bridge and the smoke clears, the picture has NO golden hue at all. It looks like the old color timing. When they walk to the other side, the picture gets the golden hue again."

"This scene also has a strong teal push, which is consistent with most of the low light/interior scenes of this release. Bright light/exterior scenes are bathed in yellow."

Multiple people who tried to re-color it themselves before the Kino disc came out stated that it was difficult to do as using one setting wouldn't fix the whole film due to the different grading in certain scenes. Here's one quote from the same forum:

"I've tried re-grading the 4K MGM, and the problem is that even when you get half the scenes looking good, the other half still look terrible. So it needs to be done on an almost scene-by-scene basis, and even then you have shots like the awful looking final wide shot that you can never get right."

There are plenty of more posts on the same forum and multiple other sites which are very similar although I don't see the need in wasting time posting more quotes saying the same things. Fact is that people have been saying this for years now, they're not just starting to say this now like you're incorrectly stating they are. It's true that some people may have ignorantly said that the "piss tint" is consistent for the entire duration of the film and I've seen posts that still say it is consistent even after the release of the Kino screenshots, but there's no need to pretend that everybody shared the exact same opinion when they clearly did not.

You may not see green skies or any of the other issues others see but rest assured they are there and this can be proven by analyzing the raw data directly from the disc in a professional color identifier. People who are seeing these issues are simply just seeing what's on the disc, if you're not seeing them then that's likely an issue with your setup or perhaps even your vision as not everybody sees things the same way.

I find it comical that you're holding the fans responsible when ultimately it was Kino that decided to fiddle with the colors of the existing master for their disc, not the fans. Kino could have easily not altered the colors as they were not forced to carry out the fans' requests. Also you state that "Many of those doing the loudest yelling, BTW, had not ever actually purchased the 2014 Blu-ray - it was all based on viewing screen caps.", how did you come to this conclusion and is there any evidence to back up this claim or is this just conjecture on your behalf?

I think it's worth noting that fans offered to allow Kino to use their original IB Tech prints as reference for the retiming of the remaster but Kino didn't take up their offers.Maybe if Kino did use these as reference then we'd have the most accurate color timing out of all the Blu-rays of TGTBATU. Why blame the fans for a clear mess-up on Kino's part when some of them offered to let Kino use their prints for reference which would have likely yielded much better results?
 

haineshisway

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Gee, negative creep (nice moniker), I must have seen posts other than those you've oh so selectively offered here. Because there were hundreds complaining of the blanket urine-soaked yellow.

And do you think I'm the only one who doesn't have a problem with the earlier Blu? Because I'm not the only one.
 
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haineshisway

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From Wikipedia: The typical straw man argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition through the covert replacement of it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and the subsequent refutation of that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the opponent's proposition.[2][3]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Here is what Jordan wrote in April, long before this disc was released:
https://theeditroomfloor.blogspot.de/2017/04/current-issues-with-good-bad-and-ugly_59.html

Maybe you can point out to us the sequences where Jordan writes about "urine soaked and piss color" as I cannot find them, in fact I searched the whole page and could neither find the words "urine" nor "soaked" nor "piss".

By the way I saw greenish skies on the MGM on my ISF calibrated system and no, they are not there in every scene. I could show you a report of my front projection system that has been calibrated to D65 REC709 color space with a gamma of 2.3 and an average dE of less than 1.0 with a Jeti 1501 reference grade spectroradiometer and Basiccolor Discus colorimeter.
I was talking about the general tenor of the posts on the other board - this isn't a secret - go read the, you know, hundreds of pages from the original release. I wasn't referencing Jordan specifically and I think that's pretty obvious.

We're all offering opinions here. Oh, and I'm watching with these little things I have called eyeballs - I don't sit there analyzing data or with machines. Is that really what movie watching is like for you? Not me.
 
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