RAINTREE COUNTY on Blu? (1 Viewer)

[Robert Harris]

The work on Gog was pretty impressive.

I'm equally blown away by the work that David Strohmaier has done with the Cinerama titles - when you look at those restoration comparisons and see the before and after, it's amazing to see how those titles have been brought back to life with very pleasing looking color.

Forgive me for being a grumpy curmudgeon, but I find it hard to believe that Raintree County could only be made available after undergoing a restoration which would cost millions of dollars which could never be recouped, while the Cinerama titles and the 3D Film Archive titles were made available for a small fraction of that total, and had their investments recouped.

You’re a “grumpy curmudgeon.”

There is a Huge difference between using extant film elements toward a low-rez, non-asset producing, video element, and a true fully resolved restoration.

In the case of Raintree, I’m with WB.

If the film is to be restored, it must begin with 8k scans of the original negative, which should be accessed for NO OTHER PURPOSE.

For home video purposes, a DVD will do nicely, derived from an older telecine.

RAH

 

[OliverK]

You’re a “grumpy curmudgeon.”

There is a Huge difference between using extant film elements toward a low-rez, non-asset producing, video element, and a true fully resolved restoration.

In the case of Raintree, I’m with WB.

If the film is to be restored, it must begin with 8k scans of the original negative, which should be accessed for NO OTHER PURPOSE.

For home video purposes, a DVD will do nicely, derived from an older telecine.

RAH

I would love to see that older telecine. It should at least look better than a DVD and deserve to be made available as a 1080p stream on filmstruck, vudu or other streaming services.

Can you please comment on the surviving prints of the roadshow version?

From your previous post that unfortunetely is already deeply buried deep down this thread I understand that there are a number of surviving roadshow prints and I wonder if Warner holds any of these prints or if they are in collectors hands and possibly not available to Warner?

If they are in collectors hands should Warner not try to scan them in pereferably 4k the moment they are made available? Collectors may change their minds about making prints accessible and they may also chose to sell their prints not to talk about unfortunate things that have happened to collections once their owner passed away.

The way I understand it a 35mm 4k scan can be done for relatively little money and even with no further work done it would serve as protection against loss or further deterioration.

 

[Andrew Budgell]

For home video purposes, a DVD will do nicely, derived from an older telecine.

Mr. Harris, my apologies in advance if this is a dumb question, but then why wasn't a telecine used to produce a DVD during the heyday of that format? For as long as I can remember it seems that an expensive restoration has always been the roadblock, even during the DVD era...

 

[Robert Harris]

Mr. Harris, my apologies in advance if this is a dumb question, but then why wasn't a telecine used to produce a DVD during the heyday of that format? For as long as I can remember it seems that an expensive restoration has always been the roadblock, even during the DVD era...

I believe telecines stop at HD, which is not an asset. It’s a distribution format.

For anything serious one would desire .dpx files.

 

[RolandL]

Looking forward to your impressions, it may even look better than that splendid Blu-ray of The Hallelujah Trail...

Sorry, first time taking pictures from my iPhone and copying to PC. Definitely not the same transfer for PBS as TCM. PBS broadcast is a clearer picture and a bit more picture info on the bottom. Also in the opening titles you can see a shimmering of the lines in the TCM that you don't see in the PBS.

TCM

PBS

TCM

PBS

TCM

PBS

TCM

PBS

 

[Andrew Budgell]

Thanks for posting these photos, Roland. I'm very intrigued and would love to see this broadcast, but unfortunately neither of the PBS stations I get (WNED Buffalo/Toronto, or KCTS Seattle) have Raintree scheduled.

 

[Andrew Budgell]

I found this short promo video on the Milwaukee PBS website.

If anyone gets this channel, it will re-air today (March 25th) at 1pm.

 

[RolandL]

That sucks Andrew

It is broadcast again today on PBS at 2 PM EST. Missing the overture and intermission with a running time of 166 minutes. PBS sound is 2.0 Dolby Surround.

 

[Andrew Budgell]

That sucks Andrew

It is broadcast again today on PBS at 2 PM EST. Missing the overture and intermission with a running time of 166 minutes. PBS sound is 2.0 Dolby Surround.

Roland, how much of an uptick on video quality would you say it is over the transfer TCM airs?

 

[RolandL]

The transfer for the TCM broadcast I'm guessing was done back when people were watching old 1.33 tube TV's probably 480I. I don't know if this is a newer transfer or not. It does look better. Maybe the same improvement that I saw when comparing the MGM HD broadcast of The Alamo to the TCM HD one.

 

[Andrew Budgell]

Thanks, Roland!

 

[OliverK]

Thanks Roland, big upgrade over what was shown on TCM. Would you say it looks similar in detail to the Blu-ray of Mutiny on the Bounty?

 

[RolandL]

No, not that good. I asked WB facebook and they said it's not a newer transfer than TCM's.

Maybe not newer but it is better.

Hey, maybe TCM received the same transfer as PBS but made a copy of it and converted it to 480I and that's why it's not as clear and has that shimmering (sorry don't know what else to call it)?

 

[OliverK]

No, not that good. I asked WB facebook and they said it's not a newer transfer than TCM's.

Maybe not newer but it is better.

Hey, maybe TCM received the same transfer as PBS but made a copy of it and converted it to 480I and that's why it's not as clear and has that shimmering (sorry don't know what else to call it)?

I would have hoped that it looks as good as Mutiny on the Bounty that looks rather soft itself. If Raintree Countys is not as good then it will not be that much better than a good DVD when upscaled properly:
https://caps-a-holic.com/c.php?a=1&x=242&y=283&d1=534&d2=533&s1=5427&s2=5414&l=0&i=8&go=1

Regarding the difference to what TCM showed if it aired it on their SD channel in 480i that would make sense, less so if it was aired on TCM HD. Where did you record it?

Also the colors seem to be quite different which also is rather surprising if both stations got the same source from Warner.
As you can see from the caps from Mutiny on the Bounty the SD and DVD versions have very similar colors and do not look nearly as different as the two versions of Raintree County.

Might be an idea to contact PBS what kind of resolution the master had that they got from Warner and if it was interlaced or progressive and if maybe they have other information.
If you tell them that their airing was much better than what you saw on TCM they will most likely be happy to respond as everybody likes to be praised

One scene that always showed bad shimmering by the way was the scene where they go to the old burned down estate and there is a scene where they go up the stairs with the huge columns to the left and to the right. That one looked horrible on the old TCM 480i broadcast and worse than the LD version. Would be interesting to see how it looks in the PBS version.

 

[RolandL]

It originally did show on TCM when they only had an SD channel. It was upcoverted to the TCMHD channel as it is window boxed. I recorded both versions (TCM and PBS) from their HD channels.

I contacted PBS. Let's see if they respond.

I'll see if I can copy a video of the shimmering on TCM, not on PBS and show it here if possible for comparison.

 

[Konstantinos]

TCM
View attachment 45083

PBS
View attachment 45084

here's the corresponding screenshot I have from an "hd" file, i think from TCM as I compare.
The PBS surely looks more vibrant!

 

[OliverK]

A closeup of the MGM symbol in the end titles might be telling - how much more detail is really resolved in that one in the PBS version vs the TCM HD airing if at all? As for the colors somebody may have turned up the blue and the saturation a bit, this could have been done to the same master with the result being two very different looks.
For what it's worth I remember the IB tech print that I saw being less saturated than the PBS version but the colors were less warm than what TCM aired so that print would fall in between the timing of these two airings. So it is hard to say which one would be more correct, maybe the answer is somewhere in between.

 

[RolandL]

Anyone notice Perspecta Sound on the opening titles? I wonder if they did release 35 mm prints with this.

 

[Bob Furmanek]

For a period of several years, every MGM feature, short and cartoon was in Perspecta. They bankrolled the system with Fine Recording.

 

[OliverK]

Is it known if all prints of Raintree County with an optical soundtrack had Perspecta sound?