Pr/Y/Pb vs. Cr/Y/Cb

Discussion in 'Home Theater Projects' started by Louis J, Feb 5, 2004.

  1. Louis J

    Louis J Auditioning

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    This amy be a laughable question but I really am a newbie. Recently my Toshiba SD-2700 power supply died so I figured it was a good time to switch to progressive scan DVD. I am looking into the Mitsubishi DD-8040 or Panasonic XP30. I recently purchased 2 Pr/Y/Pb Monster Cables for the SD2700 to run into my Onkyo SR-700 and I just noticed that on the Mitsubishi DD8040 the component output hook ups are Cr/Y/Cb. What are the big differences here and I assume that if I realy want the Mitsubishi I need to go and get Cr/Y/Cb cables. It's just kills me that I dropped almost 200 bucks on the Pb cables and may not even get to realy use them. Thanks in advance
     
  2. PaulT

    PaulT Supporting Actor

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    Louis,

    You are fine with your cables.

    Pr/Y/Pb (Progressive Component Video)
    Cr/Y/Cb (Interlaced Component Video)

    Both are Component Video signals that your Monster cables will handle.

    IMHO, if your DVD player outputs Progressive, then they have marked the back Cr/Y/Cb as the 'standard Interlaced' output.

    You will have to switch the output to Progressive Scan yourself. On my Panasonic I physically have to get up and push a button, other units can do it from the menu with the remote.

    Just hook the red to red, green to green and blue to blue and you will be set.
     
  3. Louis J

    Louis J Auditioning

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    Perfect, thanks for the reply and for saving me another 200!
     
  4. Bob McElfresh

    Bob McElfresh Producer

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    Ouch.

    If you have the receipt, return the Monster cables and try one of the custom cable sites. For $50-$90 they will sell you HD rated cables for about half of what the Monster cables ran you. (Look at the top of this fourm for links to some official sites. )

    Note: you bought 2 cables? To run through your Onkyo? If you only have 1 progressive/HD source, just run the feed straight to the TV. You should only run through your receiver if you have 2 or more component sources.

    (Think about it: your reciever acts like a switch. If you have only 1 source what are you switching between?)

    The other thing to check is the bandwidth on your reciever. Just because a reciever offers component video switching does not mean it was designed for progressive or HD video. Look in your manual for "Bandwidth" on the video inputs. You want the numbers to be something like 90-100 Mhz to handle HD video.

    If you need an external switcher, let us know and I will point you to a good thread on the subject.
     
  5. Stephen Tu

    Stephen Tu Screenwriter

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    Geez, one can get RCA or GE component cables < $20 that will work just as well ... but to each his own. I'd rather spend that money on DVDs or DVD rentals.
     
  6. Mike Littrell

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    90-100 mhz for component switching? I was thinking of getting the Onkyo 601, which has 50 mhz. I read HD needs only 37 or so, should I switch to a receiver with 100?
     
  7. Louis J

    Louis J Auditioning

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    ok, now I'm all re-routed. I'm fine with the cables (actually it was $130 for two, I was blowing it up a bit. I got two, one out of the DVD to the Onkyo receiver and then the other set out of the Onkyo to the TV. Is this idiots level connections? Just checked the specs and the bandwidth is HDTV Capable (60MHz) Component Video Switching (2 Inputs / 1 Output) so am I wasting my time even running this into the receiver for component?
     
  8. ThomasL

    ThomasL Supporting Actor

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    Louis,

    if you only have one component output source such as a dvd player then you're better off just running it directly to your tv's component inputs. Running it through the receiver's component inputs and outputs is only worthwhile if you have more than 1 component output source and only one component input on your tv. This then allows the receiver to do the switching for you. And even here, this is only necessary if you have more than one component source that you really want to use the best quality connection. For example, I have both a dvd player and a dvd recorder. They both have component outputs but my tv just has one set of component inputs. Since I don't use my dvd recorder for anything other than recording, I simply have it switched through my receiver's Svideo inputs and I don't use it's component outputs. While at the same time, I run my dvd player's component outputs directly to my tv's component inputs.

    cheers,


    --tom
     
  9. Bob McElfresh

    Bob McElfresh Producer

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    Nope. That bandwidth could handle Progressive Scan video from your DVD player (480p), but I would not use it for a 720 or 1080 source.
     
  10. Stephen Tu

    Stephen Tu Screenwriter

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    That's ridiculous. 60 Mhz gives plenty of margin for HD. There is no "jumping up in speed". The absolute limit of frequencies you will see in the signal is ~35 Mhz, most signals will be below 30 Mhz. When it "jumps up", it's still below 35.
     
  11. Allan Jayne

    Allan Jayne Cinematographer

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    The bandwidth of 13 MHz for 480p, 35 MHz for HDTV, etc. is for the entire video signal path. The definition of bandwidth is such that if two items, say a receiver and a cable, each have bandwidth of X, when connected together the signal path through both of them have less than X. So you need a safety margin. The safety margin is not easy to predict so experts just make one up. I make up the safety margin for per-component bandwidth twice what you think you need, so that brings the 480p requirement to 26 MHz for the receiver and for each cable, and the HDTV requirement to about 70 MHz.

    Video hints:
    http://members.aol.com/ajaynejr/whyten.htm

    For 480i the bandwidth needed is a bit over 4 MHz for broadcast TV but is 7 MHz for DVD.
     
  12. Bob McElfresh

    Bob McElfresh Producer

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    No, there is no real jumping up in speed.

    But suddenly changing the frequency causes issues like reactive capacitance and dynamic impedence (and something to do with Eigen Vectors - memory is vague on this one). It's almost as if the sudden change causes harmonics in the signals.

    While you would think that a cable that tops out at 40 Mhz would be fine, it causes problems/distortions as the cable adjust to the new frequency.

    (I wish I could explain it better, but I cannot).

    These effects are real-world issues. Otherwise why would:

    - Belden coax designed for HD video have a bandwidth (-3db point) around 120 Mhz?

    - Canare coax designed for HD video have a bandwidth around 140 Mhz?

    - Yamaha recievers that claim to be "HD Video Compatible" have a bandwidth around 100 Mhz (or is it 90?)

    - HD Video switches by Inday, Zektor, Audio Authority all have bandwidth in the 100 Mhz range

    No, these products dont 'brag' about the high bandwidth so it's not just marketing. The specs are usually burried somewhere below the features lists. But these products are all designed to handle HD video which tops out at 35 Mhz.
     
  13. Edward J M

    Edward J M Cinematographer

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    Some of you may have read my recent mini shoot-out between the Monster Video 2 and Signal Cable (Canare L-5CFB) component video cables.

    Not only does the Canare have a noticeably better PQ in both color hue/intensity and detail resolution, I noticed something else that surprised the heck out of me:

    You may recall the issue discussed on HTF a while back about several members seeing "flashes of red" in the LOTR-Two Towers night-time battle scenes, particularly when the Riders Of Rohan attack the Orcs and Uruk-hai that are holding Merry and Pippen captive. I noticed the red flashes were also present, to a lesser extent, during certain close combat scenes during the Battle of Helm's Deep.

    I definitely was plagued with those "flashes of red", and I couldn't figure out what hell was causing them. Even going frame-by-frame I couldn't see where they came from - they were only visible when the DVD was playing at regular speed. I chalked it up to the DVD mastering process.

    Well guess what? With the Signal Cable (Canare) cables, the red flashes are completely GONE.

    I can't explain why (I'm not a video engineer), but Bob's suggestion about the Monster Video 2 cables not being able to fully handle frequency transients which in turn causes (presumably) visible harmonic distortion of the signal sounds completely plausible to me. Since nothing else changed in my video rig besides the cables, I can only conclude the cables were responsible for generating the "red flashes" on these scenes.

    Count me as a believer in the highest quality video cables you can afford - there are noticeable PQ differences between different brands and models of component video cables. FWIW, the Canare cable is rated -3 dB at 250 MHz for a 100 foot length; I'm sure this already great performance is even better with the more typical 6 foot run for HT.

    Regards,

    Ed
     

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