Pioneer vs Panasonic DTS-ES Discrete a big deal? (1 Viewer)

[Chris Shelly]

I am about to make a buying decision. I have my choices narrowed down to 2 models. The Pioneer VSX-D811S and the Panasonic SA-HE200S. The Pioneer is highly rated on this forum. It is also cheaper then the Panasonic. As far as usable features they have about the same amount. The Panasonic has a more robust amp section then the Pioneer. I listened to both at Circuit City and I thought the Panasonic had a little more life then the Pioneer. The Pioneer does have DTS-ES Discrete whereas the Panasonic does not as far as I can tell. The salesman suggested the 811S for the simple fact that it had DTS-ES discrete. Both are available in silver..LOL

Interestingly I noticed that many retailers that don't normally carry Pioneer products actually stock the 811S. It must be a classic.

I slightly prefer the Panasonic because of the better amplifier section but the DTS-ES discrete sounds like an important feature. I can't make up my mind.

I might just forget about both of these receivers and find one with a more robust amplifier and DTS-ES discrete. Of coarse that would cost more.

Is DTS-ES Discrete anything to get excited about? Do all DTS-ES receivers offer Discrete and only Pioneer makes a big deal out of it? I am so confused!!!

Chris

 

[Svapan]

Hi Chris,

I had a similar question concerning DTS-ES and Panasonic. I had emailed Panasonic's tech support asking them if the HE200 does DTS-ES discrete. The answer i got back was yes, it does both DTS-ES Matrix and Discrete.

Sorry, I have deleted the email since I have decided to wait for the Marantz x300 series.

Hope this helps.

 

[Geoff L]

The Panny 200 dose DTS-ES discrete...

A more "important feature" is (the lack of full preouts on the Panny) where as the 811 has full preouts all channels.
This, if you ever were to consider external amplification is something you would definitly want.

And I belive the 811 is also 7.1 ready.?

The Pannys internal amp section is much stronger in the 200 than the 811 but runs a little warm, not to worry, this is usual for the Pannys design. Also has a fan built in and higher bandwidth pass threw for video...

Just some more to chew on..

Regards
Geoff

 

[Chris Shelly]

had a similar question concerning DTS-ES and Panasonic. I had emailed Panasonic's tech support asking them if the HE200 does DTS-ES discrete. The answer i got back was yes, it does both DTS-ES Matrix and Discrete.

Holly Molly....It does?

I am sold if it does. I would not put alot of faith into Panasonic customer service. I will create another thread asking any 200S owners if it does ES Discrete.

Since the 200S has a robust amp section it is highly unlikely anyone would ever need to add an external amp. So preouts is not a big deal. I have owned 4 receivers now with preouts and never used them as an example.

I have heard the 811S is 7.1 ready as well.

Chris

 

[Svapan]

I would not put alot of faith into Panasonic customer service.

I agree, but the funny thing was customer service coudn't answer the question. Go figure. So they forwarded to an engineer who answered it.
I'm surprised that Panasonic doesn't advertise it much more clearly. I would think that it might turn off potential buyers. I know I was until I asked.

 

[Chris Shelly]

I would listen more to an engineer then customer service.

Panasonic really should look into advertising it more. I almost went with the Pioneer because they put a big DTS-ES Discrete on the front panel.

Its now makes me wonder what other receivers do Discrete that don't advertise it?

When I get it next week (ordering from J&R) I will have to toggle between the 2. Even though I want Discrete capability I wonder if you can actually tell the difference. I doubt you actually can most of the time.

 

[JohnnyG]

I asked Panasonic this question at dealer training and the answer I got back from the product manager was interesting - you can't do just Matrix without Discrete - they come hand in hand. It's the software that might implement one or the other.

The net effect between Matrix and Discrete really isn't much different. In Matrix, the receiver decides what to remove from the RR/LR and send to the center. In Discrete, the RR/LR are exactly the same as they would be in Matrix, but there is a 6th channel specifically for the RC and this information is then removed from the RR/LR. If the material is encoded well, there should be very little difference between the two techniques.

 

[AaronJB]

The Panasonic SAHE100 reciever also does DTS-ES (Matrix/Discrete), DTS NEO-6, DPLII and, unofficially, DD-EX.

 

[Chris Shelly]

I asked Panasonic this question at dealer training and the answer I got back from the product manager was interesting - you can't do just Matrix without Discrete - they come hand in hand. It's the software that might implement one or the other.

That is what I kind of thought as well. It would make sense to offer both on every DTS-ES receiver and thats what I originally thought. It would not cost anymore and the amplifier is already there. Then I looked at the Pioneer 811S and it made a big deal about DTS-ES Discrete. Then I checked other receivers and most high end brands make a big deal about being DTS-ES Discrete whereas the cheaper line does not.

Probably just the marketing departments making a big deal out of nothing.

I am glad the Panny can do it. I have nothing really major against Pioneer and have owned them in the past. I had a Pioneer Pro-Logic receiver from the early 90's. It was ro-bust and sounded pretty good. I sold it to a friend of mine who still has it today. Something happened in the mid 90's and Pioneer started getting really cheap. Because of that I still shy away from Pioneer. In my opinion they still don't look as sturdy as before. Of coarse who actually does now days in this throw away society?

Chris

 

[MattKlukas]

The SAHE100k supports Dolby Digital EX (6.1) ????
I didn't think it did, if so that might help me make up my mind, I was leaning towards the Pioneer 811, but if I can get 6.1 (DTS and DolbyD) in the cheaper panisonic I might lean that way, hmmm, decisions decisions
-Matt

 

[GregK]

If you just see just the standard DTS logo on the receiver / decoder, and the unit has surround-back options, it is probably "ES or EX compatible", but won't do DTS ES-discrete nor offer DTS Neo6 matrix decoding.. A least this is how all Yamaha 6.1 matrix receivers have been so far.

But if there is an official DTS-ES logo on the unit, it will have the full gamut of DTS decoding features, including the Neo6 matrix for 2 channel material plus the official DTS ES-matrix and ES-discrete 6.1 surround modes.

Just curious: Has anyone found a situation when this ISN'T the case?

 

[ChrisWiggles]

Greg,

No, I dont think that that is the case. If it has ES-matrix, it will say DTS-ES. If it has ES-discrete (obviously along with matrix), it will say DTS-ES also. If they tell you it's discrete, then it is, if not, it matrix only. If it is ES/EX "compatible", it means that it most likely only does matrix ES, along with EX, whiich is matrix, but the company is not using "kosher" ex/es decoding. For instance, i know the just replaced marantz sr5200 had "6.1 compatible". It did EX/and ES matrix, but it did NOT say dolby digital ex, or DTS ES on the box, because it was marantz's proprietary processing that was accomplishing the same thing. So, just because it says ES on it does not mean it is discrete, although i do feel that the difference between matrix and discrete is just an ego thing.

 

[GregK]

Ahh.. I see. Thanks Chris for the clarification on this issue. Well, so much for a quick definitive way of telling. :frowning:

 

[Chris Shelly]

I think we might have opened a can of worms here.....and more DTS users are more confused then ever.

Is DTS Discrete/Matrix a selectable option or is is purely software based? How do you know. Does it show on the receiver display?

At this time I doubt any sound mixers are using a Discrete sound mix that would sound any different then Matrix. But having that extra discrete 6th channel could in theory be really beneficial.

Chris

 

[AaronJB]

The display on the Panasonic SAHE-100 reads "DTS-ES Matrix" (Cast Away, for example) or "DTS-ES Discrete" ("Blade II", for example) depending on the soundtrack. This scrolls across the display on the reciever when the reciever first detects the soundtrack.

 

[Chris Shelly]

Thanks Aaron,

My receiver has been ordered and should be here sometime late next week. Can't wait to get it all wired in. I have even installed my extra N24 speaker in the back.

Chris

 

[Chris Shelly]

I was also going to say that I run an independent cinema. I have recently looked into upgrading to Dolby Digital EX. Total cost would be about $1,500. $1,000 for the card and $500 for the install. Luckly we have some spare 8,000 series JBL speakers.

I am not sure if the sound track formats can carry over to DVD but every movie being released is now in Dolby Digital EX and DTS ES. I would think in the near future every DVD will support these formats.

Chris

 

[MattKlukas]

You said the SAHE100k 'Unofficaly' supports Dolby D EX. Is this a fact? Just wonering why the wouldnt put it on the package. In any event if only one is available which would be better to have? Dolby D EX or DTS-ES?

Thanks for your help guys.
-Matt

 

[JohnnyG]

Just wonering why the wouldnt put it on the package.

I believe the answer is licensing $$.

 

[ChrisWiggles]

yep, licensing. Why bother if you can do the same thing without paying royalties? I'm actually surprised that not more receivers use their own proprietary versions. I guess its that ego thing again, gotta have that big logo there on the front to impress your friends that only have videostage 5