Panasonic admits it's newest HDTV tv may be obsolete soon!!! (1 Viewer)

[Keith_JS]

David wrote:

Unless you have access to information about future events, perhaps you should post that some of these things are possibilities, instead of the apocolyptic, "You have been warned."

Why the ire? Am i a threat to you in some fashion? Do you not think these are matters which should be amiably discussed?

I am not your enemy. I am just like you and most others who post here. I passionately love film and have always dreamed about having a REAL home theater. I've finally reached a level of affluence where I can make my dream a reality and as a result I intend to purchase the best HT system I can afford. The crown jewel of whichc was to be a big screen tv for $2k give or take a couple hundred bucks.

I had never even heard of DVI before I started researching HDTVs on the net a few weeks ago but at another forum I ran across a heated discusion on the subject and felt compelled to do a google search on the term.

I was blown away, shocked, and yes a bit frightneed by what I read. I had come very close to making a huge purchase which could conceivably be rendered obsolete if the MPAA refused to allow its property to be viewed at 1080 on non-DVI equipped sets. I was extremely disapointed because the ability to watch and record HDTV films from satellite, down the road, was a major factor in my desire to purchase an HDTV.

I was lucky. If i had been in the market a year ago DVI wouldn't even have been a concern-- and I'd be mad as hell right now like alot of HDTV owners on other forums.

I'm not suggesting that no one should purchase a non-DVI HDTV just because I won't. However, I do believe that everyone should at least be aware of the potential downside of doing so BEFORE they make a purchasing decision. If i can open the eyes of just one prospective HDTV owner then I have achieved something.

I really don't see what's wrong with that.

 

[Dan Hine]

Keith,

LADIES AND GENTLEMEN THE WRITING IS CLEARLY ON THE WALL. DVI IS HERE TO STAY. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

when there is not a 100% fact that DVI is here to stay. Put that with your post of an article from GNG News that was complete and utter nonsense and what you have is a lot of misinformation or skewed information that is not really helping but IMO hurting potential buyers and the industry itself. It makes people who don't really understand what is taking place scared to buy now. Thus they wait until DVI sets come out which may end up being pointless or add fuel to the DVI/HDCP movement. Either way it's not a good thing.
Adding information is great, frightening people with false information is not cool. I'm sure you have good intents and perhaps did not even know that the information in that article was bogus. But posting it so matter of factly may not have been the best course of action.
Again, look at the numbers of sets already purchased. Now add high end CRT projectors and LCD/DLP projectors. I just see no way for DVI to really succeed. And this is not really the same as Beta vs VHS. Those were different formats all together. The issue at hand is all a connection type/encryption for one format, HDTV. The way its being done now works and should be left alone. And by purchasing sets with DVI/HDCP you (that's a generic "you") will be working for the very think you're against.
How to stop DVI/HDCP? Buy sets without it.
Regards,
Dan Hine

 

[John-Miles]

Thanks for those wonderful numbers Dan, and your math is correct, but i personally think 4000 might be a high estimate, but even at half that we are still talking 4.6 billion in HDTV's which are aparently soon to be obsolete.

But wait, i am reminded of a thing called Divx, the studios loved it because it gave them all the control, but what won out? DVD the most likely case is the consumer will not be shafted on this one, with 2.3 million people ahve dumped between 5-10 billion dollars into HDTV's there would be huge backlash. and even if the backlash were not enough as everyone here will likely agree it is the early adopters who make somethign succeed. i for one still plan on buying a new HDTV in a few weeks, and news flash it dosent ahve DVI, let alone HDCP.

And you knwo what in 1-3 years (hopefully) when HD-DVD comes out on the market, I will buy one, but if it cant connect to my tv i think many other early adopters will follow the same route as myself and just not buy it, where will the format go then? no early adopters and the format wil fail. unless of course the manufacturers are willing to pump money inot a losing format until enough people ahve compatible tv's that the general public is willing to buy these HD-DVD's (i just dont see this happening)

and well one more point that must be made is quite simple, the DMCA is what prevents people from making a set top box that will convert your dvi input to an analog signal, If i am not mistaken there are many people in the legal community who seriously believe this law will not hold up under numerous appeals. finally add to that the fact that it is an american law, and likely some smaller electronics manufacturer in another country will likely see the making of such a device as highly profitable 2.3 million units at 100 dollars each, hey i wouldn't turn down 230 million dollars in sales. Now by no means am i advocating any kind of illegal act, but I am quite sure it is legal for me to buy electronice equipment made in tiawan especially since i reside in canada.

The bottom line is if the studios insist that DVI/HDCP is the only way to go then even these new tv's with DVI inputs will be out in the cold without a STB that the DMCA makes illegal (or at least the DMCA can be intepreted that way) so the studios will make HD content that no one can watch, so who will buy it? since many manufacturers own parts of the studios they stand to lose on the content and the hardware side.

constantly throughout history people come up with ways to prevent piracy, and new technologies are seen as threats. but inevitably people come to their senses and they realize they cannot have complete control. sure the studios lose billions every year to piracy, but their profits are still in the billions. and ultimately the studios know that the problem is not your average consumer with the ability to copy a few movies for friends, the problem is the person with a warehouse who makes thousands of copies a day. this whole issue is about content control, and consumer control. and it will only work if we let it. so when HD-DVD comes out and all these other copy protected DVI HD sources who will buy them, certainly not the 2.3 million people who own HDTV's cause they cant even watch this content. eventually someone will realise that they are selling a product no one can buy. it would be like putting a 7-11 in orbit, sure its convenient for the dozen or so people who go inot space every year, but come on whos going to buy there?

 

[John-Miles]

one more thing i am curious about, people say DVI is a connection type used commonly on computers????????

yes that must be a good idea make the only output on an amazing format one that is designed to connect to computers?

well if thats not the greatest copy protection scheme ever i dont knwo what is (please note sarcasm)

(i may be in error in this post, but i do not believe i am, but please feel free to correct me)

 

[Marshall Sander]

I'm pretty new at this stuff, but from what I have read:

John - The copyright protection aspect is the HDCP. DVI is used because it is the only format which offers the ability to transfer an uncompressed HD signal. HDCP is the copyright protection scheme proposed by the MPAA.

Keith - You are in the same position as I was about 3 months ago -- looking for your first "prized" HDTV or HDTV ready television. There was an informative thread on this forum awhile back regarding HDCP and DVI (about 6 pages) -- the first post on that thread quoted the article you found in Home Theater Hi-Fi. I found that thread when I started looking and, initially, I had your level of concern. Now, just 3 months later, I am not as concerned. I intend to buy an HDTV ready set in the fall. I would prefer to have a tv that has both firewire and DVI, but that is unlikely. I am looking at the new Sony Wega series which have a DVI input -- but even these inputs do not have the HDCP DVI input so they would be just as useless as an HDTV set with no DVI.

Edit Note: I'm not surprised I was wrong about Sony. Apparently their new series does have HDCP.

I made the decision to buy for this reason -- after all I have read and based on my gut feeling, I believe that no matter which form of copyright scheme is enacted and no matter which form of transmission is used, there will be a long lag time before there is total uniformity in the industry. The government has, just recently, given a second extension to television affiliates to begin broadcasting digial signals -- since there is no uniformity on this basic HDTV premise, I believe it may take just as long for some kind of uniformity on copyright protection schemes. Also, I believe that if (or when) HDCP DVI, or other copyright protection scheme, is enacted, there will be a lag time before it is uniformly applied -- such as a grandfather clause which will enable existing sets to view the material (in the HDTV format) for a certain period before requiring an upgrade. By then, I will probably be in the market for a new television anyway.

And, lastly, from what I have read, the worst case scenario is that those without the HDCP DVI (or other copyright protection scheme) will be denied is the ability to watch first-run, pay-per-view material in HDVT format. You should still be able to see HDTV over the air and DVD quality pictures. Since the 480p format of DVD looks better on a HDTV ready television than my current NTSC television, I will be content to watch that quality of signal until I am able to upgrade.

Do I know any of this to be true? Of course not. And if you believe differently, there is certainly a logical basis for doing so. But keep in mind that your research on this issue represents a small percentage of the people buying HDTV or HDTV ready televisions. I have several friends who just bought and didn't give a hoot about HDCP DVI or issues regarding copyright protection -- even after I pointed them to this forum and these discussions. My gut tells me that all of those consumers will not be left out.

 

[John-Miles]

Good points Marshall, as well I was part of the discussion on DVI a few months back, and that was what i remembered from that large post as well, DVI alone is not enough it has to ahve the built in HDCP decoder, which none of the sony's have.

 

[Craig S]

I've been following this discussion with interest, as I am at the point where I can't hold off getting a large 16x9 set any longer (I am currently using a 1986 Mits 36" RPTV!!). Marshall's summary seems to make sense and to remove some of the gloom & doom about this issue.

And, lastly, from what I have read, the worst case scenario is that those without the HDCP DVI ... will be denied is the ability to watch first-run, pay-per-view material in HDVT format. You should still be able to see HDTV over the air and DVD quality pictures.

This is what I have gleaned as well. As I am really interested in DVDs and over the air HDTV (I don't have cable or satellite, and don't care about PPV) I am thinking I am going to go for it. There are pretty good deals out there right now on the Pannys & Sonys and I think it's time to take advantage of them.

Does anybody have any reason to refute Marshall's worst case scenario??

 

[Dan Hine]

None of the new Sony's will have HDCP? Then Keith and everyone else waiting, and I'm being serious here not rude, looks like you are down to ONLY a 48" JVC as a DVI/HDCP HDTV option. (enough acronyms? ) I've heard that Toshiba's new line is DVI upgradeable. Does anyone know if it will include HDCP? Heck, never mind. I think upgrades on a TV's are silly. Will owners have to ship their TV to be upgraded or will it be something where a technician comes to your home? Either way I don't see that going to smoothly judging from all the posts I've seen regarding local technicians. "What is ISF?"
There is a 55" Mits at my local tweeter for $2199...hmmmm.
Regards,
Dan Hine

 

[Phil L]

I don't know about the Wegas but all the Sony DVI RPTV's will be DVI/HDCP. See the press release here:
http://news.sel.sony.com/pressrelease/2022

 

[John-Miles]

If you will notice in the press release they say it is compatible, with a set top box, there is no decoder built in, sony if trying to cash in on the fears of the public and the lack of concrete decisions regarding HDCP and its implementation. a year or 5 from now when things are settled and they require a built in decoder sony will say oops things changed too bad.

 

[David Barteaux]

Here is the way I see this thing. This is only speculation, but if you think about this rationally, this makes sense. First, the equipment manufacturers are putting DVI on most of the new TV's this fall, fact. Second, If Hollywood starts to down-rez right now, you will get a massive backlash from all the early adopters and also Joe Sixpack, who is at the local Best Buy tonight, purchasing his new-fangled "analog" HDTV. Finally, it only seems obvious from this fact that the MPAA will force the down-rez in no less than 5 years from now. By that time the dust will have settled, most TV's will have DVI, and Joe Sixpack may just want to buy your used "big screen" thinking he just got a sweet deal This way you got to watch 480p DVD and now have a downpayment on a new DVI, Firewire, or whatever, digital TV.

The industry will have to wait to start the down-rez. It would be foolish if they didn't. Just my 2cents.

 

[Tim_B]

Ok, quick question from the newbie. Assume that the doom and gloom is correct and DVI is the way of the future. If you have a non-DVI HDTV, would you be able to purchase a STB that would pass the HD signal to the monitor through component cables? It would certainly make sense to allow for this (spending $500+ on a STB) rather than (allegedly) obseleting all of the non-DVI HDTVs.

 

[John-Miles]

simple answer Tim, they claim analog cables arent secure and are easily pirated from. As such any STB would eb a violation of the DMCA because it would allow an unencoded signal to leave the box to go who knows where

 

[Matt Heebner]

Another small point I would like to make....Believe it or not their are some relatively powerful people on our "side" even if it is for their own purpose.

Mr. Mark Cuban has stated to Hollywood, Jack Valenti, and Congress that he would never, and he means never allow his broadcasts to be "down-rezzed" for any reason. He said (jokingly) he would buy up all the broadcast stations before letting this happen. Yet if DVI becomes the standard this is exactly what would happen to millions of viewers. Mark is a goddamn hurricane for HD programming. With the very first all-HD channel HDNet, and with 3 more all HD channels before the end of the year, he is probably the single most powerful driving force (right now) behind HD. There is no way he will back down from the MPAA.

Mitsubishi.....selling the most HDTV's puts then in a pretty powerful position, and they have indicated time and time again that they have no interest in supporting DVI. When hundreds of thousands Mits owners get pissed off regarding their "obsolete" TV's, believe me someone WILL pay attention.

It will ultimately be up to the consumer. Hollywood can do want it wants but the consumer will be the final judge. To rid ourselves of DVI worries....don't support it. Taking away simple liberties such as time-shifting programs should make it an easy decision.

Matt

 

[Dan Hine]

Matt,
I agree with you 100% about not supporting DVI. Well, DVI/HDCP anyway. Some plasma's have DVI interface for connection to a computer and if a TV manufacturer wants to add another connector then fine. But what is being proposed is nonsense.
And John Miles,
I don't necessarily think that $4000 is too high a median price to put on HD sets sold in the past 3.5yrs. Why? Because during that time MANY have been sold for $10k. In fact I don't think they came down much below $2500 until late last year, correct? Also, $45,000 CRT's while not "televisions" should be included as well and that significantly raises the average. But yeah, lots of money in these things already.
Dan Hine

 

[Larry Seno Jr.]

Tim-

Yes, there will be a set top box. It might not be released by a legal source, but it will exist.

 

[John-Miles]

true Dan, I never considered that.

but either way it is alot of money indeed.

DOWN WITH HDCP AND DVI

 

[Thomas_P]

John, sorry about the HDCP argument on the new Sonys again.
The way I understand HDCP, is that the display is wired in a way that doesn't allow copying, adding to the fact that there is no way to copy uncompressed HDTV, about 1.4 gigs a second. Someone please clarify, because I would like to know If i don't have any reason to wait for the new Sony I've committed to.

 

[John-Miles]

Thomas, this was discussed in a thread a while ago
http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...light=dvi+hdcp
and one of the key issues mentioned in this thread is that you do actually need a decoder, ultimately dvi is no more secure than anythign else, except that it is digital, and therefore allows HDCP copy protection.
as well I dont believe HD content is 1.4 gigs per second, blue laser discs will hold about 100 Gigs and they are big enough for HD-DVD's and i dont know any movies that are 70 or 80 seconds (sorry for the sarcasm there, no insult intended)
I firmly believe that Sony is just trying to make a few bucks off the uneducated. they dont ahve HDCP built in.

 

[David Judah]

Keith,
No ire here and, of course, you have every right to discuss the issue. It is something some have been following and discussing for awhile now.
My point is that it is a bit premature for the doom and gloom scenarios(perhaps only PPV & Premium channels will be locked out for existing HD owners, for example)and it looks like you have edited some of your words with a little temperance, so thank you for that.
All,
Check this out. For those who haven't heard yet, it looks like DVI is going to be upgraded to include audio protection, as well, with HDMI(High Definition Muli-media Interface). It will apparently be backward compatible with DVI and use HDCP. It looks like alot of companies are supporting it, but it is still early in the game.
It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out.
DJ