Panasonic admits it's newest HDTV tv may be obsolete soon!!! (1 Viewer)

[Keith_JS]

The following should cause anyone who is considering purchasing a HDTV without DVI inputs to at least reconsider the wisdom of doing so.
The brand new Panasonic PT53WX42 53-Inch HD-Ready Television(with no DVI input) has the following liability disclaimer:
"If your cable company passes through a DTV signal unchanged, an optional HDTV set-top receiver can decode and tune the program. However, standards for cable connectivity have not been finalized. Consequently,this product may not be compatible with your cable system ."
Translation: In the future hollywood will not allow its product to be released in high definition format unless its encrypted. Hollywood has agreed that DVI is the format they will use to accomplish this goal. Satellite and cable companies will be forced to impliment this system IF THEY WANT TO SHOW HOLLYWOOD'S PRODUCT AT 1080 (directtv has already stated they will down convert signals to 480p to subscribers who don't have DVI if the studios request them too). Our 2002 tvs were designed before it was apparent that DVI was the future of HDTV-- in 2003 we will rectify this oversight. Please buy one now but remember it's at your own risk.
LADIES AND GENTLEMEN THE WRITING IS CLEARLY ON THE WALL. DVI IS HERE TO STAY. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.
It looks like I'm either going with the 48" JVC or waiting until the new Sonys come out with DVI.
http://ww2.onecall.com/PID_15493.htm

 

[Brajesh Upadhyay]

True, but that goes for almost all DTVs sold thus far, which is in the several millions (not just early adopters). It'd be a huge mistake on the manufacturers' & studios' parts to ignore all these sets & expect people to simply buy new DTVs. Hopefully, they'll be sensible to continue to provide full resolution via component video.

Even with digital connectivity, Mits is sticking to Firewire, others are doing DVI & some are doing both. It's still early to tell what's going to happen.

 

[Chris_MJ]

The Toshiba 50h82 is DVI upgradeable. Is that correct? That alone is a reason to buy this set. Not sure if it is true but a dude at Toshiba Canada said that the upconversion has been improved.

 

[Dan Hine]

I agree with Brajesh. I recall when Firewire was the connection to have and virtually no one was talking about DVI. Maybe this time next year people will be saying "Wait until the sets with the ______ input come out in the fall." I for one am not going to let the fear of DVI or whatever stop me from buying a set. Also, in the statement by Panasonic there is no mention of DVI at all and it does not say the set WILL not be compatible but rather "may not" be.

I'm gonna be a "glass is half full" kind of guy and pretend that means that Panasonic is actually against DVI/HDCP and is not supporting it. But they can't guarantee that they will win so they are covering their butt. Wishful thinking? Maybe. But the more people that own sets without such inputs the better.


Regards,

Dan Hine

 

[Eric_M]

Ok can someone explain briefly about DVI or is there a link where I can read about it someone has on hand?

Thanks

 

[Brajesh Upadhyay]

Hollywood likes DVI because it provides no way to record HD. It's gaining momentum (Toshiba's & Sony's new TVs have DVI). Mitsubishi continues to rally behind Firewire & I applaud them. One of these formats may win, or neither -- I wouldn't be surprised if some other digital format(s) popped up.

 

[Brajesh Upadhyay]

Eric, DVI stands for Digital Visual Interface, a digital connection that's been used in the computer world for a while now. Unlike Firewire/IEEE1394, DVI I believe sends uncompressed signals back/forth between components, so that's why there's no way to record it (say on a DVHS deck). I'm not 100% sure about this, but if you do a search @ avsforum.com's HDTV Hardware section, you'll get lots of info on DVI & Firewire (plus all the different kinds of scary copy protection formats being proposed).

 

[Keith_JS]

Dan your glass is half full analogy has been made before by many others when an emerging technology has entered the field. Will Divi be the next divx or DVD? I don't know and neither do you but I can say that alot of very wealthy and powerful people are determined to make it succeed.
Here's an interesting thread from the HDTV news forum last march sarcasticly titled, "THE SKY IS FALLING":
http://ilovehdtv.com/hdtvforum/artic...ry/8f55dS.html

 

[Keith_JS]

Eric,
Here are a few tasty morsels to savor. read and learn grasshopper read and learn:
http://216.239.37.100/search?q=cache...ang_en&ie=UTF8
http://www.dvhs.co.uk/100046.htm
http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20010521S0035
Link Removed
http://www.usatoday.com/life/cyber/t...taltv-usat.htm
http://ilovehdtv.com/hdtvforum/artic...269E0A3B1.html
http://ilovehdtv.com/hdtvforum/artic...270F7C15D.html

 

[Jim FC]

I believe that the only TVs that might be in danger of being obsolete IF there is a switch to DVI or some other damn thing, are those with built-in HD decoders. For all the HD-ready sets out there -- which is the vast majority of them -- you go into these products knowing you must buy an HD decoder somewhere down the road, anyway, right? So if things do change -- and so far it's only talk, not fact, that it will -- then you simply buy a different HD decoder box than you would have bought if things hadn't changed. It's really very simple, and it's one of the reasons most HDTVs didn't have the decoder built-in in the first place. No manufacturer will let its HD customers hang out to dry in the event of some sort of beyond-last-minute format switch.
If you are shopping for TVs and you have narrowed your search down to two, you like them both equally, and the only difference between the two is that one has the DVI interface and one doesn't, then get that one... but don't let chicken littles discourage you from getting any HD-ready TV on the market today. Whatever system we end up adopting -- if, in fact, it is changed from the one agreed upon years ago -- it doesn't affect today's HD sets at all!
PS. Hollywood does support DVI because there's no way to record off it... today. If the right people decide they want to record a DVI signal, it will be done. Remember when CDs were though of as copy-proof? How about DVDs? I'd bet that if DVI becomes the standard, it's hacked and recordable within a year. Hollywood should concentrate on something else and leave HD owners alone.

 

[Dan Hine]

Keith,

I don't know and neither do you but I can say that a lot of very wealthy and powerful people are determined to make it succeed.

I disagree a little. I think that there are a lot of wealthy Companies that want to make it succeed while I would bet that most people would not. Additionally think of how much HDTV's cost several years ago. Certainly the people who put out $10k or more for an HDTV have to be somewhat wealthy. And why limit it to televisions? How about all the people that bought $35-50k CRT projectors? I am certain those units don't have DVI inputs either.
And once again I'll choose to believe in the system and hope the masses (am I allowed to say constituents ) will out gun a few companies.
I'm not saying I'm right b/c I cannot see the future. But I know that each of us plays a part in determining what the future will be. I'm going to do what I can to make it a happy place for early HDTV adopters.
Regards,
Dan Hine

 

[Keith_JS]

I believe that the only TVs that might be in danger of being obsolete IF there is a switch to DVI or some other damn thing, are those with built-in HD decoders. For all the HD-ready sets out there -- which is the vast majority of them -- you go into these products knowing you must buy an HD decoder somewhere down the road, anyway, right? So if things do change -- and so far it's only talk, not fact, that it will -- then you simply buy a different HD decoder box than you would have bought if things hadn't changed. It's really very simple, and it's one of the reasons most HDTVs didn't have the decoder built-in in the first place. No manufacturer will let its HD customers hang out to dry in the event of some sort of beyond-last-minute format switch.

Jim if it were only so simple then none of us would be concerned other than those who have already purchased decoders or tvs that come with one but there's more to this story than that.

The film industry is not simply saying that the decoder box should be DVI compatible they are demanding that the digital tv itself must have a DVI input in order to receive 1080 content from them. The reason for this is simple-- they don't want their product to be copied by consumers when high-definition recording devices become available and the only way to prevent this, is by controlling not only the way the signal gets TO THE SET, but the internal electronics INSIDE THE SET itself.

If they did allow consumers without DVI inputs to receive 1080 content then an unscrupulous consumer could connect his DVI HDTV set top decoder (which would have a DVI "in" but only a component "out") into his brand new "HDTV DVD recorder" and sell absolutely perfect copies of Spiderman on Madison Ave for $15 a pop-- sans royalties. They aint about to let that happen.

Will they be able to pull it off? Who the hell knows? But considering that they've already got both the cable and satellite industries in the palm of their hand along with JVC, SONY AND TOSHIBA, among other set manufacturers committed to DVI, it doesn't look good right now for non-DVI HDTV owners.

Absent political intervention this one is destined for the Supreme Court and anything can happen once they're involved.

 

[RyanDinan]

You guys have to remember, that there is nothing in the DVI-spec that says they can't output a HD image over component on such STB devices - They can, and they do. However, image-constraint is under the HDCP-spec.

DVI can be a good thing for newer TV's, as it provides an all-digital path to the TV. But it's this HDCP crap that's souring the deal - especially for current analog HDTV owners.

I heard that there are plans in the works to add "digital watermarking" to the HDCP spec, which is analagous to Macrovision on DVD (except more copy-proof).
With this digital watermarking on analog outputs, they would then have a "secure" analog path, and have no need to use image-constraint or down-conversion over component connections. Then everyone could watch full HD on their sets. However, timeshifting of HD movies is uncertain. I think there won't be much (if any) limits on recording HDTB broadcast material - But premium stuff will probably be a "copy-once" or "never-copy" deal......


-Ryan Dinan

 

[Keith_JS]

An interesting article from gng news archive:
"Everything You Own Is Wrong
I've been coming across quite a few articles lately detailing how, not only rapid obsolescence, but the MPAA is screwing us all over. If the Consumer Electronics industry doesn't do something fast, all of the great and wonderful ideas we've had will be crippled - and not just in minor Register This Product ways either. Go to almost any Home Theater specialty site, and the uproar is growing.
Point 1: All the DVDs you own will not work properly with current or esp with future HDTV sets.
Point 2: The upcoming HD DVD players will not work with your current set - that means all existing sets including the $15,000 Pioneer Elite you may have just purchased.
Point3: Very little of today's A/V gear will be interoperable with forthcoming gear - the connectors will be all FireWire or a new DVI spec.
Point4: DirectTV is integrating CGMS (CopyGuardManagementSystem) directly into its receivers. When the industry is ready to throw the switch over, the TVs with 1080i will be hosed. The content will be in 1080p and if you do not have an HDTV that has the new HDCP connectors, the HD stream will be downgraded to 480i or 480p.
Because of the way the MPAA is pressuring the CE Industry, they are required to build in certain levels of consumer protection. This is the basis for everything going wrong. MPAA controls the content and so the CE industry buckled.
Point 1: Current DVDs are at a resolution of 480 lines +/- (depends on how you define it). HDTV supports a variety of resolutions, but the main HDTV spec is 1080i lines. That means the image will have gaps in it - the DVD doesn't provide enough info to fill the screen. Think about an image that has just under every other line missing. Go to an Ultimate Electronics, put an HDTV and a good Sony Wega next to each other. Play a DVD. It will look better on the Wega than the HDTV, unless the HDTV is one of the few models that supports the 480 spec. Some support multiple resolutions, most don't. In the future, most will not do so at all. Even if you own the HDTV 1080i spec, you'll get hosed since it is 1080p that is now the primary spec in use.
Point 2: Due to restrictions by the MPAA, the security codec will have to be built into the DVD player. It will use a special connector. It cannot pass through a receiver or any other device - it has to go straight into the TV. So your reciever is now a secondary hub unit and cannot be used as the main control unit for everything. Your TV has to have a special connector mate on it, of course, meaning that when these HD DVD players ship late at the end of this year, they can only be played on HDTVs that have that DVI connector on them. Currently there are no HDTVs or any other TVs that have the connector options required under the specs. Flat out, there are no HDTVs on the market that can play HD DVDs and none will be released until late 2002. The current crop is not capable of being upgraded to support the new spec as it has been designed. It can, but the MPAA will bring the full force of the DMCA on anyone who does.
Point 3: This was coming anyway, but due to the MPAA's strong arm tactics, backward compatibility is out the window.
Results
#1 So for those of us who bought DVDs for a long term high quality movie archive - we wasted our money. We can't buy a new player that will operate with a new TV that plays the new HD TVs. Once the HDTV DVDs come out, the industry will stop placing as much emphasis on the older less-secure DVD format. Movies will be more difficult to get on regular DVD.
Recommendation: Get NetFlix, don't buy DVDs. The specs make them less than worthless. At least video tapes had a 25 year lifespan. DVD we hardly knew thee.
#2 Due to #1, buying a high end DVD player is also worthless. Spending more than $150 is an exercise in futility.
#3 DO NOT buy a big screen TV. Even if it says "HDTV Upgradeable," the only way it will be upgradeable to all of the new gear is if they provide you with a new TV. Many forums are already screaming class-action lawsuit. $700 will get you a pretty decent 36" TV that will work fine for a couple of years until everything sorts itself out. Your salesman wasn't lying or decieving you, your manufacturer was.
What this will do is not only save you a whole lot of heartache and being stuck with technology that isn't interoperable with other components. It will send a clear message to the MPAA to keep their noses where they belong since their DVD sales will take a nosedive. It will send a clear message to the Consumer Electronics industry to get their heads out of their asses and start paying attention to the Consumer, not some executives in an industry that can't adapt. It's a shame since the CE industry has always been the most consumer focused of all with devices for every need, use, and taste. In the past, new technologies could easily be integrated with older technologies. DVD players just plug into an input on your receiver along with your VCR, cable box, satellite box, computer, etc. CD players plug into an input next to phono, cassette, your video devices' audio, and so on. It all played well together. Now it's being thrown to the wind.
Obsolence is a frustrating but understandable fact we can all deal with. We all know last month's model is old before it ships. However, when two industries are in collusion to obsolete all manner of products just to subsidize one's pitiful failings is completely ridiculous. The CE industry is the one that will take the brunt of customers' frustrations. Anyone even doing a bit of looking around and educating themselves before they invest thousands will see this - it is literally on ALL of the Home Theater forums I have come across.
Even if you pooh pooh the political portion, it's idiotic to invest in gear that should last 15 or 20 years, only to have it completely useless within a year or two. There is no point in buying DVDs. By 2004 most new titles will be available on HD DVD only, and older titles not available at all if they haven't already been converted.
Home Theater Mag
Home Theater Hi Fi
Firing Squad (also links to above article)
HDCP Crack and Censorship
DMCA & HDCP
DirecTV's Typical Response While it says it they are pro-consumer yack yack BS - here is the key sentence: "Even if we are one day required by content owners to activate CGMS, our customers will still be able to view and record programs in standard definition format. " Pay for HDTV, get standard res."
Link Removed

 

[Steve Schaffer]

Kieth quoted:

Point 1: Current DVDs are at a resolution of 480 lines +/- (depends on how you define it). HDTV supports a variety of resolutions, but the main HDTV spec is 1080i lines. That means the image will have gaps in it - the DVD doesn't provide enough info to fill the screen. Think about an image that has just under every other line missing. Go to an Ultimate Electronics, put an HDTV and a good Sony Wega next to each other. Play a DVD. It will look better on the Wega than the HDTV, unless the HDTV is one of the few models that supports the 480 spec. Some support multiple resolutions, most don't. In the future, most will not do so at all. Even if you own the HDTV 1080i spec, you'll get hosed since it is 1080p that is now the primary spec in use.
=======================================


This quotation is the most complete and utter load of BS I've ever seen!!!



Every HD-ready set on the market will accept 480p from a progressive scan player and display it at it's native 480p or convert it to 540p in the case of Tosh and Hitachi. Either way the picture is far superior to what you'll see on an analog Wega.

The idea that "480 whatever" lines don't fill the 1080i screen is ludicrous, since any 1080i capable set on the market is perfectly capable of either native 480p or upconverted 540p display.

The quote above states:

========================================
"Play a DVD. It will look better on the Wega than the HDTV, unless the HDTV is one of the few models that supports the 480 spec. Some support multiple resolutions, most don't."
========================================

This is outrageous falsehood---EVERY currently available HD ready set "supports the 480 spec." They all will display 1080i, and either 480p or 540p when fed a 480i or 480p signal. Most will also accept 720p (irrelevant to the current dvd standard) and display it as 1080i or 480p, and a few will display it natively. Where this guy gets the idea that "most won't support multiple resolutions" is beyond me.








I have over 400 dvds, all of which can be played at 480p on my Sony KP57HW40 via component inputs. Picture quality is damn close to true HD from HBOHD or Showtime HD, close enough that if this
"sky is falling" hdcp scenario does somehow cause my premium channel HD to be downgraded it won't matter a bit to me. By the time a movie hits HBO or PPV, I'll have already seen it at 480p in all it's anamorphic glory.

OTA HD from the tv networks and HDNet off satellite will never be hdcp protected.

If the above patently false qoutation is any indication of what people are basing their sky is falling scenario on, I'm not worried.

 

[David Judah]

Your alarmist post aims at the worst case scenario and is filled with errors.

Point 1 is so far off it doesn't even register on the scale

Point 2 remains to be seen, but likely for many current sets

Point 3 remains to be seen

Point 4 is a possibility, but many predict it will only apply to premium channels and pay per view(who knows, anyone's guess is as good as yours).

Unless you have access to information about future events, perhaps you should post that some of these things are possibilities, instead of the apocolyptic, "You have been warned."

DJ

 

[Jim FC]

Keith, I respect your right to your opinion, but I find your post so full of logic-holes you could drive a logic-truck through them. Remember VHS vs Beta? Beta was (still is) better, but the public preferred VHS. So what's in everyone's home today? VHS. My point? Most of us discussing these TVs on this forum live, work, and buy in a capitalistic society, and when was the last time a decision was made in a capitalistic society that wasn't based on the will & whim of the consumer? HDTVs are way past the point of the early adaptors; regular folks are buying HD sets... today! It is these regular folks, who already own HDTVs & DVDs, that will prevent any new format from making their current, high-dollar TVs and DVD collections obsolete any time in the near future.
I say, go out and buy an HDTV, increase the demand for content, and count on 'the system' to do what it always has: to wait until everyone possible has spent their money on an HDTV, and only then change to a "new and improved" format -- it could be 15-20 years from now. Consumers are spending their money on HDTVS right now, and until that trend tails off, things from the technical side will not change in any insurmountable way.
Same thing with DVDs... do you really think that anyone would have the guts to attempt to obsolete DVD while it remains the fastest-selling product in history? You don't think movie studios are making a fortune selling $25 DVD that cost them $.15 to create?

 

[John-Miles]

Quick question maybe someone out there knows the answer, how many HDTV's are sold that dont have DVI?

 

[Dan Hine]

John,
I believe that JVC's new 48" unit is the only model that currently has DVI/HDCP. If I am correct that would mean that every single HDTV made to date would be affected by the new (but not definite IMO) "standard." I'll see if I can find any numbers as to how many non-DVI sets have been sold.
Regards,
Dan Hine
Edit:
I found this article that says the CEA estimates that "2.3 million TV sets capable of receiving the new digital TV signals have been sold over the past 3½ years."
Wow, 2.3 million? So whats a fair median price on HD sets over the last 3yrs? $4000? That's probably low but lets go with it anyway. So 2.3million sets at $4k per set = $9,200,000,000. Almost 10billion bucks of obsolete TV's? I don't think it will fly myself. Have a nice day!
Dan Hine
P.S. I got 3hrs of sleep last night so if I majorly screwed up some math somewhere someone please correct me. :b

 

[Keith_JS]

It never ceases to amaze me that many who have already purchased a non-DVI HDTV and more shockingly those who are actively considering doing so fail to even consider the VERY REAL POSSIBILITY, IF NOT PROBABILITY, that their tv may become obsolete soon IF (as it now seems likely) the MPAA wins the DVI/HDCP battle.
Its no secret guys, the horse is out of the barn. Unless something is done to stop it SOON all of those wonderful and expensive HDTVs "we" have will only be able to receive OTA HD broadcasts in a few years. To those who can afford and are willing to buy a new set in a few years it probably doesn't matter much but it's time for the rest of us to get our heads out of the sand and do something about it.
Here's a quote from an excellent article at the "Home Theater Hi-Fi" website which I suggets all of us should read. This is serious stuff and unless we work together to prevent it alot of folks are gonna get hosed.
"Unfortunately for consumers, the new encryption schemes mean that if you have purchased a display device before the fall of 2002, there is a 90% chance that you will not be able to watch digital HDTV media on your display. Unless your device has a DVI HDCP connector on it, you will be limited to a 480p analog signal (or a 480p digital signal if you have DVI DTCP connector) from digital sources, including HD-DVD, HD Satellite, and HD-Cable. There are a few content sources now that provide 1080i analog, but they can't offer the digital connections on the same unit per the license agreements. Expect to see these 1080i analog devices disappear fast, because the studios consider them a threat. "
The entire article can be found at Link Removed