Panasonic 47 inch Television experience (1 Viewer)

[Dave Gogebic]

Here is some more info as I get smarter about these RPTV issues.
My Panasonic 47 inch looks amazing with the RP91 Panasonic Progressive output DVD player - last night I watched office space in 1:85 -1 Ratio and it looked almost 3D. As soon as I go back to Direct TV Sat/DBS - it looks so bad I want to throw up. What is the deal with the Direct TV signal and these HDTV's - I notice that lots of people are complaining about this with the Mits also.
I'm in a difficult situation. If all I were going to do is watch DVD - I could live with this set....but I watch a lot of sports and regular TV - I don't think I can live with this set for this reason.
I have a great fear that I'm going to have the same problem with the Mitsubishi...55 inch from reading the forums -
It seems like people who buy RPTV's are between a rock and a hard place. If you have an alignment problem - you can't count on the regular technicians to fix it properly - in fact they will make it worse - so you need to pay for an expensive ISF calibration - BTW - who does these in the Minneapolis area? It seems that RPTV's for people who like getting into the internals of the set and spending weeks tweaking it. All I want to do is watch a good widescreen picture on all sources.
Why can't the TV manufacturers figure out a better way to keep these expensive sets in alignment.
Are the tube sets any better? The plasma panels seem like the best option to me - but I don't have 7-10K to pay for one.
What is one to do? Any advice?

 

[Carlo_M]

Wow, that is not good news. I've hated cable and was looking to move to either DirecTV or Dishnetwork, but now you're saying it looks terrible.
re: what servicemen will do - my A board is being swapped out next week and the authorized tech is not only doing a replacement, but a re-convergence as well. So certain repair centers do at least that much. Like Michael said, they won't do gray scale, but they will do convergence if it's really bad (although I'm sure I'll spend way more time on it after he leaves and get it near-perfect).
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My dealer of choice (especially if you live in So-Cal, I highly recommend them): www.yawaonline.com

 

[Michael TLV]

Greetings
The reason DTV looks the way it does on HDTV sets ...
Variable/low bit rate on programming. (Poor source)
line doublers make poor programming look worse.
note that high bit rate channels like HBO/Showtime ...
TNT, PPV look much better.
Scan lines via interlaced video cause the mind to fill
in the gaps in the image mentally. This creates an
illusion that the image is sharper than it really is.
This is why DTV on interlaced displays looks sharper.
It's an illusion, albeit satisfying to the eye.
When the image is progressive ... there are no spaces
for the mind to fill in since the entire image is on
display all the time. Hence we see the image for what
it really is. (Crud)
This is why a progressive scan image of a white wall looks less detailed than an interlaced version of the white wall. The wall is actually devoid of detail though so the 480P representation is the correct one.
The advantage of the Panny is that you can turn the
linedoubler off for DTV. No other brand of TV on the
market allows for this.
In Minneapolis ... seek out Pat Bradley ... or me in Mid Sept 15 - 17 when I am in the area.
Regards
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Michael @ The Laser Video Experience

 

[Jim Tudor]

Alright. I am very seriously considering taking the plunge, and buying this set in the next few days. But there are a few questions I have:
1.) I have a non-progressive Sony S300 DVD player. Will this be good enough?
2.) I watch mainly DVDs, but will also be watching regular broadcast TV with this set. (Non-cable.) I have a good antenna on the roof of my house. Will the picture be acceptable?
I have never had a RPTV before, and am currently using a tiny 13" office TV until I get something better, so almost ANY new TV will be an improvement. BUT, I only have enough $$ to get this TV now, and that's it. No ISF calibration, no progressive-scan, no HDTV signal until further notice. I believe that with the tips found around the web, I can tweak it enough to get a semi-acceptable picture. But I need to know that after spending that much $$, it will be worth it.
Thanks...
JiM T

 

[Mark Bendiksen]

I'm in the same boat as you, Jim. I'm seriously looking at purchasing this set very soon, and I also can't afford "extras" (such as ISF calibration, progressive DVD player, etc.) right away. (Well, actually I could afford them, but my wife might murder me in my sleep. But that's a separate thread...)
Anyway, in answer to your first question, since the Panny does 3:2 pulldown (and from what I hear does an exemplary job at it) I would think that you can do without a progressive DVD player for the time being. Others might disagree, but that's my two cents.
The calibration issue is another matter. Since I haven't had a RPTV before, either, I'm a little nervous about messing with service menus. What's a guy to do? The key question is, if I acquire the necessary grid and carefully proceed with the 64-point convergence am I treading on thin ice? I'm certainly not a "techno-idiot", but these are still unchartered waters for me.
Link Removed

 

[Michael TLV]

Greetings
Don't you just get 18 months on a manslaughter rap?

Remember ... P-Scan units can now be had for $200 to $250 on an entry level basis and these units do 2:3. Hardly breaking the bank. It's just not your $2000 P-scan variety.
something akin to not buying a car because you cannot afford the porsche. Well, there are plenty of other good cars out there too.
Remember guys ... you have to keep alot of what is said in the proper perspective. If you were sold on the TV in the store based on the images it was displaying, you will not be disappointed because OOTB is pretty much what you get.
Nothing here is unviewable ... cable and satellite are certainly viewable ... it's just that it could be better. You will find that your appreciation of fine images just improves over time.
regards
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Michael @ The Laser Video Experience

 

[Andriy Zolotoiy]

Don't worry Mark, most of us were in your shoes. At least now job of convergence alignment is much easier than before. My first RPTV was analog Sony, and that was real pain to put all of those color lines together. My Panny should arrive in a couple of weeks, can't wait much longer

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Andriy Zolotoiy
My HT: http://members.home.net/azolotoiy

 

[tommy_esq]

ok guys help me out. i've been wanting a widescreen RPTV for sometime now. me and my fiancee went to the local best buy just to "look" or so i told her. i have been eyeing the tosh 40H80 due to price and size restraints. however, she was drawn to the panny 47. she says "we can get that one"...i guess she wasn't too impressed with the tosh (perhaps a size thing?!). i have to admit, the panny looked beautiful in the store...just as good as the tosh. same price and i think we could fit it in to accomodate the room. since then i have been reading up on this set and am somewhat discouraged. i've seen posts from several people who will be returning it and others who say they've spent 60 hours calibrating the friggin thing! we've never owned a RPTV (we currently have a 32" direct view) and know nothing about calibration. we have comcast cable and watch a ton of DVDs (no progressive scan yet). as a layman, am i going to be that disappointed with this sets performance out of the box? or are these so called 'enthusiasts' just that hard to please?? feedback please!

 

[Michael TLV]

Greetings
If you liked what you saw in the store, then that is pretty much what you are getting OOTB.
And yes, these are enthusiasts talking here. Standards of nitpicking are elevated significantly.
You will become one of us ... one of us ... eventually. Only a matter of time ... one of us ... one of us.

Regards
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Michael @ The Laser Video Experience
[Edited last by Michael TLV on July 31, 2001 at 05:59 PM]

 

[Carlo_M]

And yes, these are enthusiasts talking here. Standards of nitpicking are elevated significantly.

Hey! I resemble that remark!
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My dealer of choice (especially if you live in So-Cal, I highly recommend them): www.yawaonline.com

 

[Matt_Stevens]

tommy, I would recommend sticking with a 4:3 HDTV if you watch a lot of cable & broadcast. Otherwise, without tweaking, you WILL suffer burn-in.
The 43" Toshiba and Sony 4:3 HDTV's with 16x9 squeeze are both outstanding sets and will give you everything you need. Yes, they are a bit more, but they will need less work out the box.
You will STILL need to do some calibration. To make it simple, when you buy your set, immediately turn contrast and brightness down to 50%. Then use a THX OPTIMODE DVD (T2 SE has it. AKIRA SE has it, there are dozens) and calibrate with that. It will take 20 minutes and you will have a very nice looking set. After 6 months, get it ISF'd.
You are home free.
For the record, I bought the 47" Panasonic. I watch little regular TV.
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www.deceptions.net/superman

 

[Dave Gogebic]

tommy_esq
I too thought that the TV looked great in the show room - when I got it home it sucked.
You can't really tell whether you will like it or not until you get in the actual environment that you are going to be viewing it. I'd check out the Mitsubishi's - that is what I'm going to get in replacement of the Panasonic.
I can state that the Panasonic is stunning using a Progressive Scan DVD player - I have the Pannasonic RP-91N and I have never seen a better picture. Cable/Sat is a totally different story.

 

[Justin Doring]

I saw the Panasonic at Good Guys yesterday, and I must say that the picture looked horrible. I mean 1980's RPTV horrible. Granted, it was a store display so one can't expect much, but I set the user controls to a reasonable level and the picture still looked lousy. Also, the build quality was terrible; the set was actually coming apart at the seams! Granted, no RPTV has really good build quality (except the pricy Pioneer Elites), but the 40" Toshiba and 46" Mitsubishi had Audi-like fit and finish compared to the Daewoo-like Panasonic. Also, the pictures on the Toshiba and Mitsubishi sets were FAR better, and they are the same price as the Panasonic. Even with full ISF calibration, I doubt this set approaches the quality of Toshiba, Mitsubisihi or Pioneer.
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"Home is where the theater is!"

 

[KevinO]

Hey Matt, you said without tweaking the Panny would eventually suffer burn-in if one mostly watched 4:3 material. Besides adjusting the white level, what tweaking are you referring to. Are there service menu adjustments required to prevent burn-in. Thanks.

 

[tommy_esq]

Matt, is the only way to prevent burn in to watch only widescreen dvds? i can only think of a few TV shows that are broadcast in widescreen... certainly there must be a way to prevent it. i would say we watch 40% dvd and 60% TV....

 

[Carlo_M]

Dave,
Did you try disabling the internal line doubler while watching TV/DBS/Sat? It's done by changing the mode from TV to Game (I forgot exactly where it is but you can check the manual, it's in one of the sub-menus under Picture, Setup or Channel options from the main menu). This will disable the internal line doubler (don't worry, won't affect your component inputs, those default with the line doubler ON and cannot be disabled) essentially giving you a large NTSC TV.
Let us know what you think of the results. I don't watch much cable myself so it's a non-issue for me.
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My dealer of choice (especially if you live in So-Cal, I highly recommend them): www.yawaonline.com

 

[Rod U]

As a recent purchaser of the Panny 47" widescreen PTV, I can say that many of the complaints about the system are true. DVD definitely looks much better than my S-video satellite connection. Having to adjust brightness, tint, and color every time I switch between the two sources is a royal pain.
And don't even think about putting a center channel speaker on top of the Panny! My 15 pound speaker caused the screen to bow and distorted the picture! So I had to build a shelf on the wall behind the TV to hold it (which actually looks pretty cool). But the rest of the TV seems to be durable enough.
I was able to get rid of most of the red push by using the Avia DVD and setting the red bar using the Color register, the green bar using R-Y_A, and the blue bar using B-Y_G. Personally, I keep the line doubler on since it brightens the picture up a lot, and removes the black horizontal lines. I don't notice an improvement with it off. The Circuit City techs showed up after a 2 week wait, and only tweaked the convergence grids (which I had already done myself). But now I'm noticing that the CRTs defocus more and more towards the left side of the screen. It looks like I'm going to have to have an ISF'er come out to truly get this TV to perform at specs.
Another note: Don't bother ordering the $90 screen protector if you get the 47wx49 version of the TV. All they send you is a pre-cut piece of plexiglass with no means of attaching it to the TV! I'm sending mine back since I only have a girlfriend and a dog, neither of which pose much of a threat to the precious screen on the TV.
One positive note: The on-board sound system is quite good and the surround sound mode really seems to work. Though for DVD's and movies I use my THX-certified speakers instead...

 

[Carlo_M]

What center speaker are you using? How is the weight distributed?
I ask because I am using an Energy AC-300 center with mine and it does not bow or distort the picture at all. The rough dimensions are 8"H x 19"W x 13"D and about 24lbs (checked Energy's site, this is a heavy center speaker). But the weight is distributed pretty evenly across the speaker and it is not front heavy. Maybe yours has uneven weight distribution, or maybe your cabinet isn't screwed on as securely as mine. Perhaps you should check that out with a screwdriver, just to see if it helps.
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My dealer of choice (especially if you live in So-Cal, I highly recommend them): www.yawaonline.com

 

[Matt_Stevens]

KEVIN'O, 16x9 sets just cannot handle constant 4:3 material with those gray bars. Eventually, you will see burnin (the gray bars will burn into the CRT's and during all programming, will be seen), UNLESS you lower the contrast and brightness to reference level AND have it in 4:3 say 30% of the time or less. Any more and you risk burn-in, no matter how perfect the settings are.
For me, I plan on watching mostly DVD's and hopefully, HDTV, so it's no big deal.
Many people do two things to stop burn-in. #1. Cable news shows are viewed zoomed in and dropped down, which cuts of the dreaded "MSNBC" or "FOXNEWS" icons and stock tickers, which can burn in with ease. #2. They drop the brightness down for viewing 4:3 material and just watch that stuff in the dark. That saves life for the CRT's.
TOMMY, 60% 4:3 TV viewing is too much for any 16x9 set, unless you zoom in or stretch for half that 60%. If not, stick with a 4:3 HDTV ready set.
JUSTIN, the Panasonic is set at Torch mode by default and will cause CRT damage in no time, so show room floor models will look horrible.
Now, I have seen 4. Two looked great after I tweaked them, but they were on the showroom less than two weeks and were not on Torch to begin with (somebody must have lowered the settings). At Sears, with the aid of a DVD player, T2SE DVD & optimode, I got the Panny looking grand. It sold me.
The other two were at Circuit City stores and were on the floor over a month and it was clear that the Torch mode had already done the dead.

I could not get either to look all that good. Now, the thing is, that may be due to the ghastly TV feed they had them hooked up to to. I asked for a DVD player in both stores, but at one they had no cables (probably an excuse) and at the other, the DVD player would just crash, so i could not see how the set should perform.
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www.deceptions.net/superman

 

[Dave Gogebic]

I agree totally with Rod. Forget this set. I have had it for about 1 week now and here are my conclusions. This set is like Dr. Jekel/Mr. Hyde. On DVD's it is Dr. Jekel - on standard 4:3 broadcast stuff it is Mr. Hyde.
If all you are going to do is watch Progressive output or non Progressive output DVD sources - this set is a bargain and has a very high detail picture. I could watch Progressive DVD's all day long on it.
If you plan on using it for 4:3 stuff - Sat/Cable/etc. forget it - it has the worst picture I have ever seen in my life. Even my wife - who isn't very picky has stated that she cannot live with this set. Mine is running on Direct TV SAT with a good Monster SVideo cable being used.
Yes I have turned the line doubler off with 4:3 stuff - it improves the picture a little but not by much. Watching this set in cropped 4:3 mode is almost unwatchable as you get annoying white side bars that distract you from the picture. My cropped picture also shows how badly the geometry is on this set - (no straight lines)
The build quality of this set if aweful - if you like K-Tel, "Toys are us like plastic" go ahead and get it. Even my 13 year old son says it looks like junk.
Mine has a terrible geometry distortion - (screen tilts to the left on all sources - you can clearly see this with any text on the screen - also my convergence is horrible. I haven't tried going into the service menus - and quite frankly I shouldn't have to Panasonic!!!! I have used the convergence 9 point settings which isn't much help in my issue.
I haven't noticed the red push that everyone is talking about - mine is quite acceptable with the factory settings and I don't see a Red Push problem. Maybe I'm not as sensitive to it as others?
Having only one video memory is more than a pain - it makes using this set a chore. You will find huge variations from standard inputs to Component Video inputs - luckly my Panny RP-91 let's you save different Video settins in the DVD itself - if you don't have a DVD player that does this you will find yourself re-adjusting the user settings everytime you go back to a standard video source.
OK OK - it's a cheap set and I shouldn't expect a lot right? - if you consider $2K cheap...I personally don't - and if I'm going to spend $2k and be miserable - I figure I might as well spend upwards of $3K and be happier.
I also agree that if you are going to get this set - get the version without the glare screen. The glare screen is terrible and causes so much glare you can't stand to see this set during any daylight hours. It's even bad if you have a light anywhere in front of the set in dark conditions. I'm not sure why anyone would pay an extra $100 dollars to make the picture worse.
Mine's going back. I haven't decided whether I'm going to stay with a 4:3 HD set or a 16:9 set. I really like watching DVD's in 16:9 but I also watch a fair amount of 4:3 stuff and having to deal with 4:3 stuff in 16:9 format is really bad. It appears everyting is moving in the 16:9 direction - so I'm leaning that way - I just wish HD TV broadcasters would catch up with the Television mfgs. I also think the HDTV recievers are quite expensive right now - no doubt they will come down in price over the next 12 months.
I'm thinking that since I have a 32 inch Panny tube set downstairs - I might resolve myslef to only watching movies upstairs. I'm still leaning towards the Mitusbishi 55857 as I can get a really good close-out deal of $3K on it. Mitusubishi's have a red push issue - but they are certainly built better - (cabinet wise at least). The Panny weighs in at about 147 lbs - the Mitsubishi weighs in at around 276 lbs. Make your own conclusion on that statistic.
Here's my summary of what I like and dislike about the set:
What I like: Low price, Good screen size for my room, sound is very good for a set of this calibar, Can turn the line doubler on and off through TV/Game Mode settings, very good Progressive DVD performance - especially with the Pannasonic RP-91 - (highly recommended). If I only wanted a set to display 480P DVD output - this would be the one for the money.
What I dont' Like: Bad calibration from the factory - mine was horrible, Terrible 4:3 viewing in all modes, Cheap plastic case - yes I also have problems with bowing with a large Boston Accoustics Center Channel speaker - (also only has a 6 inch ledge on top), Glare screen implementation is terrible - too much glare, User Convergence adjustments are not good enough to fix more than average convergence problems - (only 9 point convergence), documentation is almost non-existent, set is quite deep - actually takes up more depth than a 55 inch Mitsubishi, only one memory setting for all inputs for video, etc.
This is just my opinion - based upon my set. Your mileage may vary. Good luck in your decisions - I'm glad I had a 30 day in home trial from my retailer.
I hope my Mitsubishi will be better. This whole TV process has been very stressful. I almost wish I never sold my 4:3 45 inch Mitusbishi RPTV. It was an excellent set.