*** Official THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE RETURN OF THE KING Discussion Thread (1 Viewer)

[Haggai]

I thought they worked great in FOTR, blending in very nicely with the other hobbit kids listening to Bilbo's story about the trolls. I know they were among the Rohan kids in TTT, but I don't exactly remember where. I do agree that they're sort of distracting in ROTK, since their shot in Minas Tirith doesn't have anybody else in it.

I guess the mood of whatever shot they're in matters a lot. In FOTR, you're already smiling at how cute all the kids are and how great Bilbo is at selling the story, so spotting a cameo doesn't really take you out of the moment. But in ROTK, it's in a somber scene as Faramir and company go to a near-certain death, so it's not where you want to have a cameo that should be fun to spot.

 

[Sam Davatchi]

I don’t like when it’s the same cameo in the three movies. They should stop it. Since it’s all one movie and happening in the same universe, time, the same exact people shouldn’t have cameos in three different places! It takes you out of the movie! Just an observation!

 

[Andrew Bunk]

Well, at least PJ's kids aren't as dorky looking as Lucas' daughter...

 

[Dome Vongvises]

And what's with the exclamation points?



Anywho, thanks for the history lesson. I wonder when Revisionism will set in?

 

[Chris Purvis]

Also, IIRC, there were no beacons in the books - and Pippin certainly didn't sneak off and send word to Rohan at the behest of Gandalf. In the books the symbol from Gondor was a red arrow delivered (on horseback?) to Rohan - but I don't remember if Rohan was in need if they would send a red arrow to Gondor or use some other notification.

okay - I just looked it up - the arrow was delivered by a guy named Higorn to Theoden.

 

[DavidBL]

Re: Aragorn and challenging Sauron via the Palantir--

IMO the place for this in the FILM version of the story would have been right after the debate in the Minas Tirith throne room about creating the diversion at the black gates. That this actually happened is likely, since Harry Knowles watched this scene being filmed when he was on his trip to the LOTR set in 2000, and right after that, he describes this:


Hope that makes it into the EE.

 

[CharlesD]

I don't mind PJ's kids cameos. I would have been dissapointed if I didn't see any "Cute Gondorian Children" in ROTK. To me its kind of an inside joke for LOTR fans

 

[Robert Anthony]

speaking of old AICN reports--That site has an article up right now that lists almost all their old reports on these movies. Of note is Harry's visit to the set--there are, apparently, a LOT of references to stuff that was filmed for ROTK and not included in the theatrical.

I'd think anyone curious about what MIGHT make it into an extended version would do well to click those links, pick through Harry's interminable self-indulgent ramblings and see what you have left.

 

[Ray H]

Just back from seeing this about an hour ago. It'll probably take a few more viewings to digest everything, but it's very good.

I was a bit disappointed by some of the stuff that was dropped from the books including the obvious ones and other bits like how Sam actually uses the Ring in the book. Not expecting that to be in the EE, but hopefully we'll see some other stuff.

 

[Patrick Sun]

I have to wonder when the discussion dissolves into whether or not PJ should put his children in his films...

Okay, saw the film once more, and the editing in the first half still bugs me a lot, maybe moreso this time. What bothers me is how the intercutting introduces this stop-n-go rhythm to the pacing that gets tiresome. The second time around, this was more apparent to me.

When did Sam actually pilfer the ring and chain from Frodo? It had to be done before the whole "Gollem frames Sam" sequence, but when? Does Frodo not know when he is without the ring all the time that Sam has been sent home? Wouldn't the absence of the ring affect Frodo in some manner? Why doesn't the ring have an effect on Sam? Too little time spent with it in his sole possession, perhaps?

The CGI stood out more for me on second viewing as well.

The Denethor scenes made me "check out of the film" mentally because there just isn't much payoff to his presence in the film. I know, the book spells it out better, but the film is truly lacking in this department. The film just comes to a screeching halt for me when Denethor is on screen.

Can you imagine how much it would suck to draw "Beacon" duty for those poor soldiers at each of those beacons, probably freezing their butts off just waiting for one of the kingdom to call out to the others? While it looked cool, it felt too deus ex machina in happenstance (as in how these beacons existed, and why they existed a la an EBS - Emergency Broadcast System on TV).

Interestingly enough the neverending ending didn't bother me as much because I knew what was coming next. The fadeouts didn't even seem longer than they were on my intitial viewing.

The eagles presence is also poorly explained (Did we bump into "Winged Migration" and the eagles decided to show up in the nick of time?)

When Theoden is on the ground, with his horse on top of him, the overhead shot makes Theoden look 7 feet tall. Was Theoden upper and lower body severed at that point?

I would have chuckled if Merry and Eowen became an item.

What did they do to Aragorn's hair/wig at the diverionary attack at the south gates of Mordor? It looked like he had aged 10 years over night, and his hair got really stringy. And then at his coronation, he definitely looked older too. How much time had passed?

Why does Liv Tyler get 3rd billing in these LOTR films? She must have a great agent.

I will say that Elijah Wood did an incredible job of being Frodo, his acting was superb, both in dialogue and in body language. Sean Astin also did very well with his moments, though all that male bonding was getting a tad tedious at the end.

Is it my imaginations, or is Gimli more "Scottish" sounding than he had been in either FOTR or TTT?

I still find the counting of their victims (by Leoglas and Gimli) during the battles to be all too flippant an attitude for combat in such close engagements. Yes, it's fun for the audience, but it undermines the seriousness that precedes it with speeches by Theoden and Aragorn.

 

[ThomasC]

Eh...a palantir is a ball like the one Pippin "borrowed" from Gandalf?

 

[CharlesD]

Yes. That was the same one that Saruman used to communicate with Sauron on FOTR. They were originaly intended to be used to watch the borders of Gondor and send word back of any problems.

 

[Kami]

Does anyone else think ROTK was scanned in at a higher resolution than FOTR or TTT before any post-production was done? Seeing the trilogy, ROTK really stood out as looking a LOT better than the first two...and whenever they did flashbacks to FOTR in ROTK, it didn't look as sharp as the ROTK footage.

 

[Dome Vongvises]

Does anybody know of any Warcraft III maps that have an LOTR theme to them?

 

[MatthewLouwrens]

I have a question - is there a scene in ROTK in the stables? My trilogy marathon collectible has a shot for ROTK that I swear is in the Rohan stables, but I cannot remember it. Can anyone help me?

Incidentally, I saw the marathon at the Embassy Theatre here in Wellington - the cinema where the world premiere was held. Apparently we were the only screening in Australasia to get the collectible.

 

[Quentin]

Ok…the movie is excellent. By far, IMO, the best of the year. The trilogy is an unequaled cinematic achievement.

My favorite moments:

Everything with Gollum. He looked more real here. He felt fully realized. Sad and scary. Awesome.

Mery giving Pippin the “last of the pipeweed”.

I LOVE the Rohan theme. Thank you, Howard Shore.

Everything with Eowyn. I’m officially a huge fan of Miranda.

Gandalf’s speech to Pippin about death.

The three trolls in armor!

GROND!

The Lt. “stepping aside” and then spitting. THAT’S why he’s in charge.

The scream of the Witch King and Cirith Ungol lighting up. BTW, I think the screams are the Nazgul and not the fell beasts. The beasts specifically roar now and then.

Remembering the shire in the shadow of Mt. Doom.

Shelob.

And, lots more…

But, I don’t want to read through tens of pages of a love fest, so in the spirit of good conversation, here are my problems with the film and some ideas for fixes to make the film more “perfect”:

1) The Deagol scene is a bit off. Can’t put my finger on it.

2) The film is called “Return of the King”, but Aragorn’s turn from reluctant, worried, naturalistic ranger to bona fide hero-king is lacking. His speech to the troops suffers from two things (the other one below), and this is one of them. It’s supposed to UNDERLINE the change he has already undergone. But, we never really see him change. Does it happen when he faces the Army of the Dead? Not really.

It’s been brought up here before, but I think the film needs Aragorn to confront Sauron through the Palantir before going on the path of the dead. Brandish Anduril, taunt Sauron, call yourself the King. In fact, I’d have him refuse the sword when Elrond first brings it, then have something happen to remind him of his destiny, then take the sword aggressively, confront Sauron, and let the Rohirrim know you are doing something important instead of sneaking out of camp.

3) Denethor is a failure. Maybe the biggest of the trilogy. He adds little to the story and is terribly two-dimensional. Solution? Cut him. I don’t even think that the added Palantir story line can help his character. Let him go.

4) What happened to the Goonie-like Mordor Lieutenant? He is in the film enough to deserve a proper killing. Either at the hands of Theoden or Eomer. Hopefully, the EE will have this.

5) Minor nitpick – when Gandalf rides out to turn the Nazgul away, we need to see that light hit them and hurt them. This scene may have been a bit over-edited. It’s such a beautiful and heroic scene, it lacks a bit of gritty conflict.

6) Another nitpick – Why aren’t Merry and Pippin taller than Sam and Frodo?

7) PJ uses waaaay too much slow motion. In all three movies (I know, it’s his style), IMO, and particularly at the end of this film. A hanging Frodo, Eagles flying, lava bubbling, Gollum sinking (I like slo mo here), pillowfight reunion, Sam’s wedding, coronation, Grey Havens, etc. Lots there…let’s cut back.

8) I think the Eowyn/Wiki scene is poorly edited. I get that they cut away from the fight when Eowyn is down, presumably heightening the tension…”Will she be ok?” But, I think the sequence is so important that it should have continued and built on its momentum. As is, I think it pulls the rug out from under itself, and a lot of the emotion is lost by intercutting. Instead, lets stay on the scene and have her announce herself as a woman BEFORE the fight begins, continue the fight, Merry stabs him, show what this does (such as a force field falling or becoming more corporeal), then she nails him. IMO, this scene SHOULD have been the #1 talked about highlight of the film. Instead, it’s pretty good, but not epic.

9) I think the Mouth of Sauron needs to taunt the army at the gate by throwing out Frodo’s armor. Such a moment gives a great dramatic beat of despair to the army that could add to the dramatic power of Aragorn’s rally. As it is now, the scene/battle holds little weight – we’ve already seen the big fight, and we know the important beat lies with Frodo and Sam. Everything the army does is anti-climactic. BUT, if they first despair – THINKING Frodo is dead, but choosing suicide rather than living as slaves to Sauron, the fight gains new meaning and more drama.

10) Finally, I think the Grey Havens scene fails to gain maximum impact. My problems are thrice: 1) Frodo’s need to leave, his despair in the Shire, is never well communicated. 2) Too many hugs – each character gets a big hug and the camera lingers. This is not needed! We already had the “hobbit curtain call” with the “pillowfight reunion” scene. 3) Why does Frodo give the book to Sam? They already had this discussion when Frodo talks to him about the book at Bag End. It’s redundant.

Here’s how I’d do it: Have the “pillow fight reunion” scene where Frodo smiles, then the coronation – but, Frodo looks dazed and a little melancholy. From that point on, in all the Shire scenes, we should see the other hobbits smiling, but never Frodo. Even at Sam’s wedding, he can’t muster a smile. Shorten the dock scene, show the ship sailing away, fade to white. Fade back in on Frodo on the deck, gazing out over the sea. The white shores begin to come into focus. Magical. Dream-like. Finally, he slowly smiles. This would have tied in nicely with Gandalf’s speech to Pippin about death and the white shores.

 

[Dome Vongvises]

Shut up...sheds a tearI'm not cryingsheds another tear

Ah crap, cut to a commercial!

Sobs like a baby

 

[Haggai]

I thought that Sam took the ring after he chased Shelob away, and then found Frodo unconscious and enveloped by her webbing. Remember that Sam left Frodo out there in the open, hoping that the Orcs wouldn't take him away, and then cursed himself for having done that. I assume that Sam took the ring in between finding Frodo and hiding behind the rocks while leaving Frodo on the ground.

Also, according to a timeframe estimate that you can do from FOTR, it makes sense to guess that Sam didn't have the ring for long enough to be affected much by it. Frodo wasn't really affected by it until the first appearance of the Nazgul, and by that point, he had had the ring since he and Sam had left the Shire, slept outside for a night, and then encountered Merry and Pippin, just before the Nazgul almost found them. Sam couldn't have had it for more than a couple of hours in ROTK.

 

[Quentin]

I forgot one more!

11) The orcs all killing themselves before Sam comes to rescue Frodo. I would have liked more purism here. Why not have Sam wield the ring and scare off a dozen or so orcs? It makes for a fun action sequence. Then, he puts it in his pocket, kills a couple, saves Frodo and offers the ring back. GREAT!

The tower was too big too.

 

[George Cifrancis]

In the book Sam took the ring from Frodo when he thought he was dead after Shelob stung him. They didn't show how he got it in the movie.