*** Official Outlaw Response Thread (April Newsletter and Bass Management) *** (1 Viewer)

[Dzung Pham]

Does this mean that when using 2 channel stereo and the speakers set to large, all the bass signal is sent to the mains and there is no information being sent to the sub?

If you are talking about the direct mode, the full-range signal is indeed sent to the mains, but a summed bass signal is still sent to the subwoofer. You need to turn down/off the sub if you want to avoid double bass.

If you are listening to stereo via digital inputs, or without the direct mode enabled, bass management works as you would expect.

 

[Robert Elliott]

Ok,

Maybe I am missing something here. My current receiver always sums bass & LFE at 90hz and sends it out the LFE cable. If I set my mains to large, it still does the same thing but allows the maines to receive the full signal. This is largely the same functionality as the Outlaw but without adjustable cross-overs. Bass has never been an issue and I doubt it will be for the Outlaw.

Regarding engineering, which full range speakers are being used by everyone that cover the bass down to the teens? And pray tell how you fit 5 or 7 of these identifical speakers into your systems and more importantly, why would you ever need a subwoofer if all this was the case? Quite likely, your mains only cover down to the mid or upper twenties and the rest much higher than that, IF the Outlaw did not sum the bass and send it to a subwoofer, you would lose all this sound. There is a difference between LFE and low bass which seems to be lost in the discussions.

 

[BruceD]

Robert Elliott,

Have you ever had the occasion to listen to bass that wasn't summed and output from both "Mains+Sub" at the same time?

Many HT receivers have a sub-setup option that is labeled "Mains+Sub" or "both" that produces the same effect as Outlaw's design.

I think you might be able to tell the difference. But it still comes down to what you like. Everyone has their own preferences.

I have compared this "Mains+Sub" or "both" option with 80Hz xovers to a standardized setting without it (also 80Hz xovers) on a couple of HT receivers and prefer the sound without it. Just my opinion.

 

[Robert Elliott]

Hi Bruce,

I have. My post should have been more elaborate. I can specify sub/mains/both. I previously have always set to both as my mains only went down to 38hz and the low pass on the sub was set to about 80hz. My preference.

I now am using powered towers down to 27hz and have pulled the dedicated sub out of the system. Now I simply send LFE and summed bass to my 'mains' through speaker wire. I previously had the LFE line-in hooked up as well and specified both. No biggie other than needing to adjust the gain on the LFE input. When I get the SVS sub, I will drop it back in and likely set it to concentrate on bass up to 40.

According to THX and SVS (hopefully I am not misquoting TV), you never get optimal sound (always have bass issues) unless you cross-over all speakers at 80hz and send the bass to a subwoofer. Why would anyone set any of their speakers to large? Why even offer this option? Different schools of thought and different strokes. YMMV.

 

[Doug_B]

Why would anyone set any of their speakers to large? Why even offer this option? Different schools of thought and different strokes. YMMV.

For music. For example, assuming a two channel music source with an analog direct mode (generic version) at the controller, all freqs can be sent to the mains. If the mains cover bass down to the 30's, and your music selections don't dip below that (give or take some Hz), the analog direct mode may be the most pleasing versus going digital and using a crossover and sub. At the surface, doing bass mgmt in analog mode (which most controllers don't do) would appear to be an advantage of the 950, as you avoid A-D and D-A conversions.

The problem I see is that there appears to be no way to force only your main speakers to receive bass when you turn the 950's analog bass mgmt switch to the off position. If you have mains that go down low enough for your music, some folks may not like the resulting sound when the bass below the crossover freq is copied to the sub out channel. Assuming this switch works for 2 channel analog inputs as well, the solution of turning down/off the sub would work. However, this may not always be an appropriate solution for the 5.1 inputs. Multichannel music sources may spit out a signal on the LFE channel coming in to the 950, so you wouldn't want to turn off the sub in this case. Thus, you'd either have to live with the native LFE + copied bass from the other channels going on the sub out, or invoking the high pass crossover on the mains (with the same LFE + derived bass going on the sub out). Thus, there's somewhat less flexibility by not giving a 3rd option for the user of letting all six channels pass through untouched. Unless I'm misunderstanding the analog bass mgmt feature of the 950, this is what the 950 appears to be lacking.

To play devil's advocate on the large mains argument, one area that doesn't get much press is the fact that even if one's mains are nearly full range, one may not be able to position them optimally for low freq response in a particular room. I assume it would also be harder to do equalization to compensate for location compromises in mains versus a sub.

Doug

 

[Ron Reda]

Anyone,

I'm somewhat confused by all of this...do I only need to be concerned with this bass management "issue" if I'm playing DVD-Audio discs or does it spill over to CDs as well? For example, I run my front speakers as "large" in both music and HT (with a sub) applications. However, when listening to music in "direct" mode, I turn my sub completely off so that all bass is handled by the fronts. Is this possible with the 950?

Thanks,

Ron

 

[Will]

do I only need to be concerned with this bass management "issue" if I'm playing DVD-Audio discs or does it spill over to CDs as well?

Yes it affects music CDs, not just DVD-Audio. It affects the analog inputs.

 

[Allen F]

However, when listening to music in "direct" mode, I turn my sub completely off so that all bass is handled by the fronts. Is this possible with the 950?

Yes, this is possible, as long as you have your cd player hooked up to one of the analog inputs.

 

[Mifr44]

"However, when listening to music in "direct" mode, I turn my sub completely off so that all bass is handled by the fronts. Is this possible with the 950?"

You can do this one of three ways: (1) turn off the sub, (2) lower the sub's level to zero, or (3) lower the sub's level in the 950 to off (or zero?).

Michael

 

[Russell _T]

"However, when listening to music in "direct" mode, I turn my sub completely off so that all bass is handled by the fronts. Is this possible with the 950?"

You can do this one of three ways: (1) turn off the sub, (2) lower the sub's level to zero, or (3) lower the sub's level in the 950 to off (or zero?).

So then what happens to the low frequency signal? Is it just lost or does it get redirected to the mains somhow? It seems to me that it just gets lost.

 

[Will]

Two channel direct mode has no separate LF signal. But yes, the LF signal is lost with 5.1 channel direct mode if you turn the sub off. Here, direct means using analog input. That's my understanding anyway.

 

[Mifr44]

"Here, direct means using analog input. That's my understanding anyway."
That was my understanding too, except I thought it meant using the analog bypass mode.
Michael

 

[Will]

OK, analog bypass mode. I'm sure you're probably correct. But the bottom line as I understand it is that when this analog bypass mode is used, the 950 always outputs double bass for everything under 80 Hz, unless you turn off the sub. And when you do that, you lose the LF.
May I assume that for the alternative mode, the "digital" mode or whatever that mode is called, that you won't necessarily get double bass when the sub is used? Is that correct? Thanks!

 

[Dzung Pham]

If you don't use the bypass, you are converting all the analog signals to digital so you would have access to full bass management capabilities, as well as all the dsp modes.

 

[Wayne_T]

Also posted in the Outlaw Salon:

The discussion seems to be centered around how the 950 works with the 5.1 bass management switch off, er half off. As I mentioned earlier, I am one of those who would leave the switch on as I want the base management, providing it is done in the anaolg domain. The answer to whether it is done in the analog or digital domain remains elusive. Does anyone out there know?

Thanks,

Wayne

 

[Mifr44]

"If you don't use the bypass, you are converting all the analog signals to digital so you would have access to full bass management capabilities, as well as all the dsp modes."

In this case, you would be better off using the digital connection from your CD/DVD player than the analog connections if you desire bass management and DSP capability from the 950.

"But the bottom line as I understand it is that when this analog bypass mode is used, the 950 always outputs double bass for everything under 80 Hz, unless you turn off the sub. And when you do that, you lose the LF."

For a 5.1 analog input, this is true if there is a .1 channel on the source material. For a 2 channel input, nothing is lost as the mains will be getting a full-range signal.

Michael

 

[Will]

I undetstand that with 2 channel analog bypass, the mains will get a full-range signal, but won't the subwoofer also get a sub 80 Hz signal, hence double bass (unless the sub output is turned off)? Again this is with the analog bypass.

 

[Jon_Koc]

I know the Outlaws are busy, and probably do not want to touch this subject in depth.

But they really should have somebody involved in the boards at this point.

I would also like to hear from the HTF admins that have the unit concerning the base issue. I do not mean wether the unit works in your situation. I want to know what you think of this design and if it is flawed.

I understand the unit is still a great bang for buck. But for a LOT of people this ends the idea of pure SACD music as intended by the recorder when using the 950. I want to hear the HTF's admin opinions on this. They all have been so careful to say how good it sounds (granted the most important thing) but have completely dodged the question on a more basic theory level.

Do you think Outlaw messed up in the basic design of the 5.1 inputs?

 

[RAF]

Since you asked, John, I think the bass output of the 950 is just fine in all aspects. I have "Small" speakers (M&K 150's and two subwoofers and I have absolutely no problem with the way the bass sounds in any mode, direct or analog bypass, or 5.1 analog input, etc.
John Morris, another beta tester, has full range main speakers and he says that the 950 sounds just fine in his set-up as well.
What we really need here are more people getting these units in a wide variety of speaker situations and telling us what they think of the sound. In my opinion there's much too much attention being focused on the theoretical aspects of what it sounds like rather than the realism of what it sounds like.
Nobody has to believe what John and I are telling them and the beauty of all this is that they can try a 950 out for themselves. If you read the Outlaw explanation closely you'll notice that the exact same scenario played out when the ICBM was introduced. People came out of the woodwork from all over proclaiming that the theory behind the ICBM meant absolutely, positively that it couldn't work as advertised. Time and experience with the ICBM proved the theorists wrong.
As Yogi Berra said,

deja vu all over again.

 

[BruceD]

Come on now, this is getting pretty ridiculous.

too much attention being focused on the theoretical aspects of what it sounds like rather than the realism of what it sounds like

This "double bass" output isn't theoretical at all. All you have to do is demo one of quite a few HT receivers that have this "double bass" option to know what it sounds like. It is usually in the sub-out speaker setup menu as "both" or "mains+sub".

This "double bass" is not some unknown phenomenon, it has been around in HT receivers for more than a year.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't like how "double bass" sounds.

And, yes, I think Outlaw messed up in the basic design of the 5.1 inputs and the 2-channel analog-bypass as well.

How about any other forum members who have used this option?