W
Will
Jon_KRAF said:Quote:
Somehow I doubt the HTF admins think the Outlaws messed up.
Jon_KRAF said:Quote:
This "double bass" output isn't theoretical at all. All you have to do is demo one of quite a few HT receivers that have this "double bass" option to know what it sounds like. It is usually in the sub-out speaker setup menu as "both" or "mains+sub". This "double bass" is not some unknown phenomenon, it has been around in HT receivers for more than a year.
How many different times on how many different threads, on how many different forums do I have to correct folks on this?
The 950's bass management is NOT like ANY receiver that I've ever heard of, Period. Comparing the 950 to a receiver which has a full range plus "super bass" setting is just alot of misinformation bullshit. All receivers that I've heard of, use an ADC to DSP to DAC process for analog inputs, and a DSP to DAC process for digital inputs, to duplicate extracted bass from the main speakers to recombine it with the subwoofer while also leaving it in the front channels. The 950 uses a twin analog parallel signal path, one of which purely travels unaltered down the 5.1 primary path and the second of which has the sub 80Hz bass extracted from the other 5 channels via an analog filter and then added to the .1 signal path. This is nothing like the processing that the signal undergoes in the typical Denon receiver.
I can understand why Outlaw did it like this and if I was going to use this with bookshelves, I'd be really happy they did. As it is, for me, an ideal situation would have been to have the 80Hz switch truely operate as an ON/OFF switch. Still, even as it is, while using this in my system with 5 practically full range speakers and an SVS Ultra subwoofer, any cuts where excessive bass is apparent is easily rectified by merely cutting my sub amp gain in half. My 4 foot walk needed to do this is well worth the $500 savings I realized versus the next least expensive pre/pro choice, which also apparently does some funny stuff with its' analog bypass bass management.
Finally, if someone is really just mentally bugged by the idea of having "doubled bass", inaudible or not, they they can simply add a $475(shipped 2 day air)Sony P9K analog preamp and have a music and movie system probably superior to that offered by the next nearest competitor for the same price as that other preamp alone... oh yeah, and you also get a free tuner with the Outlaw 950/Sony P9K combo. However, if you are considering this option, I'd just get the 950 first, listen to it for a month and then make up your mind for yourself.
It's not quite the same scenario. The ICBM does not have non-defeatable double bass.
Outlaw:
The Model 950 provides bass summing, which cannot be sidestepped, but it also provides a pass-through of the LFE channel, which is both desirable and essential. In fact, this is exactly what the ICBM does, although the ICBM adds the additional flexibility of individually selectable crossover points for each channel, as opposed to the fixed 80Hz crossover in the Model 950.
Folks,
RAF is a paid informant and 'unwitting pawn' of Outlaw's so of course he has no issues what-so-ever with the 950; hell, the guy's been saying ship it for months.
Now it is easy to see why Outlaw did not want to issue a response. What was the point. They did and told you how it works. What do we get? The same questions. The same suggestions of failure. The same "I haven't heard it and have no idea what the hell it sounds like" critiques. Of course, I understand the concern and I understand some folks wanted yet another option.
The Outlaw isn't for everyone. It does what I expected it to. I have listened to the 'double bass' with my receiver -never had a problem but if you get too much bass...lower your LFE input. There are a couple of knobs on your subwoofer: one adjusts the gain, one adjusts the highest frequency your sub will handle. Case closed and game over.
A dumb question if I may: Where are the threads that discuss the features or lack thereof of all the other impending pre/pro's or receivers being released? What product has received the degree of critical review - prior to ever being released - that the Outlaw has?
Man, I agree with RAF. Ship the damn thing so we can end all the discussion about it. Maybe folks will spend their time listening to it rather than speculating about it. Nah. Well, Outlaw said they would resume shipping today - does that mean in three weeks?
Emphasis mine. That's what I get from it but I always did do poor reading English and don't actually have the product so am in no position to give an authoritative answer without actually using the thing.
The problem with using a select few test cases (or a single case?) with full-range speakers and the analog bypass stereo mode is that there could be several issues at hand.
Michael,
Exactly why the only way to resolve this issue or non-issue, as the case may or may not be, is by having a wide range of users chime in with their thoughts as soon as they've had a chance to listen for themselves. John is only the vanguard of the "full-range" users.
All this rhetoric by people who haven't heard the 950 yet doesn't amount to a hill of beans as far as I'm concerned. It's based on conjecture rather than hard evidence.
It is quite evident that there are certain people who would rather listen to themselves talk than listen to how the 950 sounds. As someone else pointed out, The Outlaws directly addressing this issue doesn't matter to these people. Neither do they care, apparently, how the 950 sounds. I guess it's all going to come down to me having to ask the question, "Have you heard the 950 yet?" or "What concrete evidence do you have to back up your statements?" before replying. Talking about how other receivers and separates behave and projecting this onto the 950 just doesn't cut it.
And, by the way, Robert Elliot, your check is in the mail. Thanks, bro.
All this rhetoric by people who haven't heard the 950 yet doesn't amount to a hill of beans as far as I'm concerned. It's based on conjecture rather than hard evidence.
It is quite evident that there are certain people who would rather listen to themselves talk than listen to how the 950 sounds.
RAF
More people would hear how the 950 sounds if it were more widely available.
More people would hear how the 950 sounds if it were more widely available.
Will,
Duhhh! Ya think
Whether it makes a difference on how the beta tester's systems sounded is not the point.
Michael,
I'm sorry, but how the 950 sounds is exactly the point. All this other stuff is BS.
Question: How did you like the sound of your 950?
I thought so. Talk about it when you've heard it. We all get the point. Get over it.
But for a LOT of people this ends the idea of pure SACD music as intended by the recorder when using the 950.
That's an exaggeration, I think. Alot of people seem unable to see the forest through the trees. The only people that are seriously affected by the way the 5.1 inputs are handled are those with 5-7 truly full-range speakers, ie speakers that can go down to 20 hz with no rolloff. If that applies to you, then yes the 950 is not optimal for 5.1 listening.
But let's keep in mind you don't have to put up with doubled bass on the 5.1 inputs; all you have to do if you're concerned about doubled-bass is enable the analog x-over. Now granted, maybe the fixed 80hz x-over isn't absolutely optimal for every single setup, but assuming you have a well-integrated sub it will probably sound great in the vast majority of cases.
I won't disagree that it would have been better if the manual switch could disable both the high- and low-pass crossovers, if for no other reason than to keep this issue from getting blown out of proportion. But given the choice between the 950's bass management and no 5.1 bass management at all, I'll take the 950. The fact is that most of the people shopping for a pre/pro in this price range are going to be better off with an 80hz crossover than with no bass management at all.
Honestly, I'm more concerned about the bypass mode for the other inputs, because you don't have the option of an analog x-over. I guess I'll either use the 5.1 inputs for 2-channel analog, or just use the digital modes. Certainly not the end of the world.