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*** Official Outlaw Response Thread (April Newsletter and Bass Management) *** (1 Viewer)

Mifr44

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Michael
RAF,

The problem with using a select few test cases (or a single case?) with full-range speakers and the analog bypass stereo mode is that there could be several issues at hand. One is that the system's bass is not properly calibrated. Another is that the "full-range" mains are not even close to full-range and may have significant dropoff below 80Hz. Another scenario is that the doubling of the bass from the mains and the subwoofer may be cancelling each other out. Even further is that the room in question may be reducing the amount of bass being produced by the mains and the subwoofer.

It is best, as has been mentioned many, MANY times, that individuals interested in the Outlaw 950 should try one for themselves. But I believe that Bruce D's concern about the double bass issue is very warranted and should be taken into consideration when making this decision. For those with mostly "small" speakers, this is a non-issue. For those with near "full-range" speakers and proper mains/sub balancing and room acoustics, this may well be a problem.

Michael
 

Dzung Pham

Second Unit
Joined
Mar 10, 2001
Messages
271
Since Bruce asked, my pre/pro has the double bass option available when I use the digital input so my opinion only applies to two channel redbook cd playback. I never bothered testing it with movies. My setup is a Sunfire Cinema Grand/Theater Grand 2, MBL 111A main speakers (rated at 20Hz-20kHz but in my room they roll off between 25-30Hz), and dual SVS 20-39PCs (see a pic). The lowest crossover frequency on the TG2 is 80Hz.
My bass mangement preferences for two-channel music would be ranked in the following order: 1) Speakers Large, subs off, 2) Speakers small at 80Hz, subs on, 3) Speakers Large, subs on. I agree with Bruce, the bass sounds a bit bloated in my system when the subs are on and the speakers are set to large although it doesn't sound terrible. However, I find option (2) to be fairly acceptable so I would probably enable the crossover on the 950 (especially since my rear and center speakers only extend to 38Hz). Having the option to have a true bypass would be nice though just so I could compare and decide for myself.
 
J

John Morris

This "double bass" output isn't theoretical at all. All you have to do is demo one of quite a few HT receivers that have this "double bass" option to know what it sounds like. It is usually in the sub-out speaker setup menu as "both" or "mains+sub". This "double bass" is not some unknown phenomenon, it has been around in HT receivers for more than a year.
How many different times on how many different threads, on how many different forums do I have to correct folks on this?

The 950's bass management is NOT like ANY receiver that I've ever heard of, Period. Comparing the 950 to a receiver which has a full range plus "super bass" setting is just alot of misinformation bullshit. All receivers that I've heard of, use an ADC to DSP to DAC process for analog inputs, and a DSP to DAC process for digital inputs, to duplicate extracted bass from the main speakers to recombine it with the subwoofer while also leaving it in the front channels. The 950 uses a twin analog parallel signal path, one of which purely travels unaltered down the 5.1 primary path and the second of which has the sub 80Hz bass extracted from the other 5 channels via an analog filter and then added to the .1 signal path. This is nothing like the processing that the signal undergoes in the typical Denon receiver.

I can understand why Outlaw did it like this and if I was going to use this with bookshelves, I'd be really happy they did. As it is, for me, an ideal situation would have been to have the 80Hz switch truely operate as an ON/OFF switch. Still, even as it is, while using this in my system with 5 practically full range speakers and an SVS Ultra subwoofer, any cuts where excessive bass is apparent is easily rectified by merely cutting my sub amp gain in half. My 4 foot walk needed to do this is well worth the $500 savings I realized versus the next least expensive pre/pro choice, which also apparently does some funny stuff with its' analog bypass bass management.

Finally, if someone is really just mentally bugged by the idea of having "doubled bass", inaudible or not, they they can simply add a $475(shipped 2 day air)Sony P9K analog preamp and have a music and movie system probably superior to that offered by the next nearest competitor for the same price as that other preamp alone... oh yeah, and you also get a free tuner with the Outlaw 950/Sony P9K combo. However, if you are considering this option, I'd just get the 950 first, listen to it for a month and then make up your mind for yourself.
 

Robert Elliott

Stunt Coordinator
Joined
Feb 18, 2002
Messages
103
Will:
It's not quite the same scenario. The ICBM does not have non-defeatable double bass.
Outlaw:
The Model 950 provides bass summing, which cannot be sidestepped, but it also provides a pass-through of the LFE channel, which is both desirable and essential. In fact, this is exactly what the ICBM does, although the ICBM adds the additional flexibility of individually selectable crossover points for each channel, as opposed to the fixed 80Hz crossover in the Model 950.
Folks,
RAF is a paid informant and 'unwitting pawn' of Outlaw's so of course he has no issues what-so-ever with the 950; hell, the guy's been saying ship it for months. :D
Now it is easy to see why Outlaw did not want to issue a response. What was the point. They did and told you how it works. What do we get? The same questions. The same suggestions of failure. The same "I haven't heard it and have no idea what the hell it sounds like" critiques. Of course, I understand the concern and I understand some folks wanted yet another option.
The Outlaw isn't for everyone. It does what I expected it to. I have listened to the 'double bass' with my receiver -never had a problem but if you get too much bass...lower your LFE input. There are a couple of knobs on your subwoofer: one adjusts the gain, one adjusts the highest frequency your sub will handle. Case closed and game over.
A dumb question if I may: Where are the threads that discuss the features or lack thereof of all the other impending pre/pro's or receivers being released? What product has received the degree of critical review - prior to ever being released - that the Outlaw has?
Man, I agree with RAF. Ship the damn thing so we can end all the discussion about it. Maybe folks will spend their time listening to it rather than speculating about it. Nah. Well, Outlaw said they would resume shipping today - does that mean in three weeks? :)
 
W

Will

The double bass in the 950 in analog mode is non-defeatable. The ICBM does not have non-defeatable double bass, does it?
 

RAF

Senior HTF Member
Deceased Member
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The problem with using a select few test cases (or a single case?) with full-range speakers and the analog bypass stereo mode is that there could be several issues at hand.
Michael,
Exactly why the only way to resolve this issue or non-issue, as the case may or may not be, is by having a wide range of users chime in with their thoughts as soon as they've had a chance to listen for themselves. John is only the vanguard of the "full-range" users.
All this rhetoric by people who haven't heard the 950 yet doesn't amount to a hill of beans as far as I'm concerned. It's based on conjecture rather than hard evidence.
It is quite evident that there are certain people who would rather listen to themselves talk than listen to how the 950 sounds. As someone else pointed out, The Outlaws directly addressing this issue doesn't matter to these people. Neither do they care, apparently, how the 950 sounds. I guess it's all going to come down to me having to ask the question, "Have you heard the 950 yet?" or "What concrete evidence do you have to back up your statements?" before replying. Talking about how other receivers and separates behave and projecting this onto the 950 just doesn't cut it.
And, by the way, Robert Elliot, your check is in the mail. Thanks, bro.
:laugh:
 
W

Will

Robert Elliot,
I don't have the ICBM either but I feel sure it does not have non-defeatable double bass like the 950 does.
Will
All this rhetoric by people who haven't heard the 950 yet doesn't amount to a hill of beans as far as I'm concerned. It's based on conjecture rather than hard evidence.
It is quite evident that there are certain people who would rather listen to themselves talk than listen to how the 950 sounds.
RAF
More people would hear how the 950 sounds if it were more widely available.
 

Mifr44

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Michael
"Ship the damn thing so we can end all the discussion about it. Maybe folks will spend their time listening to it rather than speculating about it."

Well, if it weren't for some unfortunate circumstances, that would have happened a few weeks ago. In case anyone has forgotten, there is the issue of the audio dropouts and the S-Video problems (which may or may not be related to the elimination of the composite to S-Video conversion feature) that Outlaw is suppose to be fixing and why shipping was halted in the first place. The shipping "pause" had nothing to do with the bass management discussions for 5.1 and 2 channel analog inputs, nor the same delay setting for both the side and rear surround speakers.

Michael
 

Dzung Pham

Second Unit
Joined
Mar 10, 2001
Messages
271
I for one would rather be listening to a 950 than talking about it. Unfortunately, unlike some people, I don't have three of them stacked up it in the middle of my home theater! ;)
Seriously, I'm sure there would be a lot less discussion and a whole lot more listening if they would just get those babies shipped!
 

Dzung Pham

Second Unit
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Mar 10, 2001
Messages
271
By the way, regarding the comparisons to the ICBM, if you want analog bypass on the ICBM, why would you even use it? It's not like it's a switching device like a pre/pro. I don't think crossover settings is something that you would normally want to constantly tweak.
 

Mifr44

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Michael
RAF,

"All this rhetoric by people who haven't heard the 950 yet doesn't amount to a hill of beans as far as I'm concerned. It's based on conjecture rather than hard evidence."

The "hard evidence" is that the 950 does not have a toggle or a menu switch to turn off the subwoofer in the analog bypass mode. This is a fact, not conjecture. Whether it makes a difference on how the beta tester's systems sounded is not the point.

It is a feature on numerous HT receivers and prepros and for many, it is not wanted. In nearly every case, this feature can be turned off. I think the reason why this discussion started up again is because of Outlaw's latest response. The hope was that Outlaw would provide this switch for the 950 in the next fix and when it didn't occur, this topic became top billing.

Michael
 

RAF

Senior HTF Member
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7,061
Whether it makes a difference on how the beta tester's systems sounded is not the point.
Michael,
I'm sorry, but how the 950 sounds is exactly the point. All this other stuff is BS.
Question: How did you like the sound of your 950?
I thought so. Talk about it when you've heard it. We all get the point. Get over it.
 

Mifr44

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Michael
I will not take the bait. I will not take the bait. I will not take the bait...
 

Jeff Kohn

Supporting Actor
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Dec 29, 2001
Messages
680
But for a LOT of people this ends the idea of pure SACD music as intended by the recorder when using the 950.
That's an exaggeration, I think. Alot of people seem unable to see the forest through the trees. The only people that are seriously affected by the way the 5.1 inputs are handled are those with 5-7 truly full-range speakers, ie speakers that can go down to 20 hz with no rolloff. If that applies to you, then yes the 950 is not optimal for 5.1 listening.
But let's keep in mind you don't have to put up with doubled bass on the 5.1 inputs; all you have to do if you're concerned about doubled-bass is enable the analog x-over. Now granted, maybe the fixed 80hz x-over isn't absolutely optimal for every single setup, but assuming you have a well-integrated sub it will probably sound great in the vast majority of cases.
I won't disagree that it would have been better if the manual switch could disable both the high- and low-pass crossovers, if for no other reason than to keep this issue from getting blown out of proportion. But given the choice between the 950's bass management and no 5.1 bass management at all, I'll take the 950. The fact is that most of the people shopping for a pre/pro in this price range are going to be better off with an 80hz crossover than with no bass management at all.
Honestly, I'm more concerned about the bypass mode for the other inputs, because you don't have the option of an analog x-over. I guess I'll either use the 5.1 inputs for 2-channel analog, or just use the digital modes. Certainly not the end of the world.
 

brian a

Second Unit
Joined
Jan 29, 2000
Messages
448
For what it's worth, nothing according to some, I tried out the bypass mode on the 1066 tonight and there is clearly a difference between the sound with the sub off and on. I'd have to guess that there IS some sort of attenuation going on if the 950 sounds the same in two channel stereo weather the sub is off or on. Can anyone who has one confirm that there are no noticable differences on the 950? I'd be curious about more details on how they accomplish this.
 
W

Will

If you want to use an ICBM so the analog crossover is at some other frequency below 80 Hz, you have to turn off the 950's analog crossover circuit (or rather, half of the analog crossover circuit), and by doing that, you'll get double bass out.
In other words, if you use the Outlaw ICBM on the Outlaw 950 analog inputs, you will still get double bass below 80 Hz.
 

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