My ISF/Mitsubishi nightmare

Discussion in 'Archived Threads 2001-2004' started by Eric T, Jul 31, 2002.

  1. Eric T

    Eric T Second Unit

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2001
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Since I bought my Mitsubishi WS-55807 a year and a half ago, I've been trying to get an ISF calibration done. I live in a medium-sized city that doesn't have a large HT market, but was pleased and surprised to find that there was one ISF-certified technician in my area.
    He came over about one month after I got my set, and after going through the convergence and basic settings, realized that he didn't have the service codes to get into my set. He left after that, promising to get the codes and come back to complete the calibration.
    One year later, he finally got the codes as well as his ISF recertification. He just came over tonight to give it another shot.
    He just left the house after 4 1/2 hours of messing with my TV. After setting up the high intensity grayscale to the 6500K NTSC standard, and tweaking the low-intensity settings as well, we watched a couple of DVD's and found the picture to be too red. After trying a couple more settings, we finally realized that the picture in the service menu is different than the picture when not in the menu! This means that any measurements made inside the service menu are meaningless, since when the menu is exited, the red and blue levels change dramatically.
    I finally just asked him to return to the original settings, since my own Avia-disc calibrations resulted in a better picture [​IMG] So now he has to call his measurement software manufacturer (Sencore) to find out how to compensate for the differences between the normal picture output and the "menu-mode" picture output, which are dramatically different.
    I'm rather upset with Mitsubishi for creating such a stupid situation with their product. I have to give my technician credit for his persistance, and the fact that he hasn't charged me anything yet as my TV is still not set up to my satisfaction. We'll give it one more try, and if that doesn't work, I'll just stick with the standard user menu settings that I've come up with on my own.
    Has anyone else had this problem with Mitsubishi RPTVs?
     
  2. BruceSpielbauer

    BruceSpielbauer Second Unit

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    It sounds as if your calibrationist has never worked on any Mits before, and failed to do his homework.

    I am not a calibrationist, but even I knew that the "red push" fix requires one to examine test patterns, then go into the service menu, make a small adjustment, exit the service menu, and check the pattern again. Then, the prescription is to repeat, and repeat, until that red push is less than 5%. It requires great patience, but the pay off is well worth it.

    There are some of the models where the color decoders are not even available in the service menus at all. It is still possible to fix the problem, but it takes some equipment, and some guts. Consider yourself lucky that your set at least allows a reasonably easy fix. Keep in mind that many other brands of TVs do not even offer ANY METHOD of correcting the red push, even as a back-door solution.

    The Mits just has a fairly high level (about 25%) of the red push. I have read that all sets typically have at least some.

    And, of course, Mits never intended for you or your calibrationist to actually be trying to do this at all. They have always claimed that there is "no problem" with the color balance (even though we all know that they ship with about 25% red push). Many other sets ship with red push, and they similarly refuse to admit that this is a problem.

    The prevailing theory is that manufacturers ship it this way to sell sets (since it gives an artifical "brightness" or "vividness" to the picture). And, none of the manufacturers is willing to publicly state that it is a flaw.

    Curiously, some of the brand new 2003 Mitsubishi models actually made the red push completely correctible from the regular user menus, with separate color adjustments for the individual colors. However, that is not on ALL of the 2003 models, and then I seem to recall that it is not an option on all of the inputs, either.

    Hopefully, your calibrationist will get all of the proper info. I know of a spot on the web where some instructions can be found for the entire procedure, if you decide that you need it. You would need to E-Mail me, as this spot is actually another forum, and it might be seen as "competitive" with the Home Theater Forum, and the editors here might not appreciate me publicizing some other spot .

    By the way, I enjoy puns.

    Bruce in Chi-Town
     
  3. BruceSpielbauer

    BruceSpielbauer Second Unit

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Eric T:

    Check your "Private Messages" area on this forum. I just sent you some instruction for the service menus, and the red push.

    -Bruce in Chi-Town
     
  4. Gregg Loewen

    Gregg Loewen Video Standards Instructor, THX Ltd.
    Insider

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 1999
    Messages:
    6,374
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    6,610
    Location:
    New England
    Real Name:
    Gregg Loewen
    Eric, sorry to hear about that.

    Red push is not a gray scale. Red push can be easily fixed via an attenuator on your red component cable. As Bruce said some of the newer sets (as do the older 03 and 05 series) have the color decoder adjustments accessible in the service menu. For your set, one must reflash the EEPROM chip to truly fix the red push.

    When working on many different brands you have to take the measurements out of the service menu, then go into the service menus to make a change, then go out once again to measure the effect.

    Best of luck,

    Gregg
     
  5. John Royster

    John Royster Screenwriter

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2001
    Messages:
    1,088
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    IIRC mits will do a reset when in the service menu. Meaning all sliders are centered and contrast bumped up while in the menu.
     
  6. Michael TLV

    Michael TLV THX Video Instructor/Calibrator

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2000
    Messages:
    2,909
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Calgary, Alberta
    Real Name:
    Michael Chen
    Greetings

    As mentioned earlier, you simply need to pop in and out of the service menu to take a look at the what happens in the real world.

    Same deal with the Pioneers.

    Oh yes ... "red push" is not a flaw. It is a conscious design decision on the part of the manufacturer. Just because you may not agree with the decision nor understand it, does not make it a flaw.

    It is there for a perfectly logical reason. (Strange as that may seem. Think of it as a lie to cover up a lie.)

    Regards
     
  7. Eric T

    Eric T Second Unit

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2001
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks for your suggestions, everyone. Bruce, I got your private message, thank you very much for the info [​IMG] .
    It seems clear to me, as has been suggested, that we need to check the measurements outside of the menus, make an adjustment, and then go back and check again. We started to do that last night, but I don't think the calibrator was confident to make adjustments without getting real-time feedback from the color analyzer. Even during the previous adjustments, he had to experiment before he figured out which way to adjust things. "Ooops, we should turn that down, not up" etc etc. :O
    Anyway I will talk to him tomorrow to see what advice he got. But to be honest, I'm not sure I want him to touch my TV anymore.
     
  8. MikeyWeitz

    MikeyWeitz Supporting Actor

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2002
    Messages:
    939
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Yep, sounds like a calibrater problem and not an actual TV problem. I would have Gregg Or Michael work on the set if I were you (if they do a tour inyour area). I wish I could have them do my Direcview Samsung, but I just cant find a spare $250 ( or convince my fiance we need it :)
     
  9. Chauncey

    Chauncey Stunt Coordinator

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 1999
    Messages:
    67
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    You can center your sliders to keep the TV from changing when go into the service menu. Here is a quote from a thread here.
     
  10. BruceSpielbauer

    BruceSpielbauer Second Unit

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    275
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Just to clarify (so no one listening in gets incorrect information), I sent the party who began this post an E-Mail explaining that, on HIS particular set, the red push is only "curable" either by using an attenuator (which fixes it for the component inputs), or by flashing the EEPROM (which he may want to entrust only to an EXPERIENCED ISF calibrator, anyway).

    I am still uncertain if the calibrator was working on the gray scale, or if he THOUGHT he might be able to access the color decoder settings through the service menu. The truth is, one cannot access the color decoders through the service menu on the particular model in question... in case others are lurking with the same models.

    -Bruce in Chi-Town, with a Mits 65819
    (I flashed my EEPROMS, once, and was never
    arrested for indecent behavior).
     
  11. Eric T

    Eric T Second Unit

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2001
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Bruce,
    I have been using a red-push attenuator...but I thought that by adjusting the red, green, and blue drive values to give an even color balance, that it effectively eliminates red push, while at the same time getting you to the 6500K standard. I thought that the red push was the result of the red gun being turned up more than the other two, is that not the case?
     
  12. Gregg Loewen

    Gregg Loewen Video Standards Instructor, THX Ltd.
    Insider

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 1999
    Messages:
    6,374
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    6,610
    Location:
    New England
    Real Name:
    Gregg Loewen
    Eric,

    Gray scale is luminence (or the black and white part of your picture). Chroma is the color part, this is where red push comes from. Many people get the 2 confused. For example if the grey scale if off, you can have red introduced to your b and W image, but this is not red push. It is very hard to evaluate red push until the gray scale is set appropriately.

    Gray scale is set via the cuts and drives, chroma is adjusted (globally) by the color and tint controls. Many sets also have separate controls for red, blue, and green. It is these controls that can eliminate red (or blue or green) push.

    Hope that helped.

    Gregg
     
  13. Eric T

    Eric T Second Unit

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2001
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Thanks for the explanation, Gregg. Do you have plans to be in El Paso any time soon? [​IMG]
     
  14. Gregg Loewen

    Gregg Loewen Video Standards Instructor, THX Ltd.
    Insider

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 1999
    Messages:
    6,374
    Likes Received:
    32
    Trophy Points:
    6,610
    Location:
    New England
    Real Name:
    Gregg Loewen
    El Paso??
    That is like in the middle of no where right ? [​IMG]
    Give me a call and perhaps we can work on a tour that way ??
    Regards
    Gregg
    207 778 5417
     
  15. Eric T

    Eric T Second Unit

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2001
    Messages:
    266
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Update: I just picked up a new Denon 3800 DVD player yesterday. I set it up with Avia last night, and one thing I noticed is that the darker parts of the picture seem too dark...ie, a black jacket looks really black with not a lot of detail. When I looked at the player in the store, the low-level detail on this player was one of the reasons I chose it. I am wondering if I need to adjust the gamma on the player, or if perhaps my TV's settings are now not correct as a result of what my calibrationist was doing. Any suggestions on how to check for this?
     

Share This Page