Lord of the Rings vs. Star Wars (Salon Magazine) (1 Viewer)

[Sam Davatchi]

We got the Lucas LOTR. It was Willow!

 

[Terrell]

Eh, sort of. But not fully. I mean a straight adaptation from the books.

By the way, can you do a barf icon here?

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

While I agree that most of the supporting characters (with the exception of Boromir) were lacking heart, I think Frodo, Sam, and Gandalf were portrayed with every bit as much heart and complexity and emotion as any modern drama. Perhaps more so. One of her points is that the movie is too rushed for emotional portrayal. I must disagree. While I agree the movie felt rushed, I thought the Peter Jackson devoted a surprising amount of screentime to the emotions of the characters. My favorite scene in the movie, for example, is when Sam stops next to the scarecrow. When Frodo asks him why, he explains that if he takes just one more step, he'll be the farthest from home he's ever been. The scene was just so perfect, and effectively portrayed Sam's persona is a brief ammount of time. Gandalf's character only succedes because of the incredible portrayal by Ian McKellan... so much of the character is expressed in his actions and mannerisms. Considering his signifigance in the last film, I really thought that Aragorn got jipped as far as character development, and Pippin, Merry, and Gimli particularly as well, but I'm confident that they will be further fleshed out in the next film, and Sam 'n Frodo will be developed even further.
EDIT: As for the quality of the narrative, that is really demonstrated by the disappointment, however misguided, with the ending, no? The audience had made an emotional investment with the character, a rare feat in the ILM school of storytelling.

 

[Terrell]

See Adam, this is where FOTR failed for me personally. It didn't really make me care for the characters. Whereas with Star Wars, I was emotionally connected to the characters, and through the development of those characters, I grew to care about them and their journey. I never felt that with the characters in FOTR. Maybe it was just me. But that's how I felt.

 

[Tom-G]

Adam,

I wasn't able to invest in any of the characters in LOTR. I didn't find any emotion in the movie overall, but there is still a lot more story to be told. I am looking forward to The Two Towers as I'm of the opinion that when I finally get to see all three movies, I may hold the trilogy in very high regards. Maybe even as much as I like Star Wars. Fellowship was similar to TPM in that it is only act one and it did a lot of setting up, so I can be forgiving of that.

 

[Kami]

There's some excellent responses from on the article here:
http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1010710821
Just because it's on theonering.net doesn't mean it's fanboys speaking, it's anything but. The last guy who comments makes some excellent points...
here was his conclusion:

In summation, you appear to have loved Star Wars for many years (as have I), it has been raised to one of the greatest films of all time, and it should be. Unfortunately you now see another film come along, apparently getting worryingly close to where StarWars was at the start, thus you have to make the comparison, and back-lash against the new-comer. In doing this, you highlight Star Wars: ANH's good points, and refuse to acknowledge the bad, but do the reverse with LOTR: FOTR. Thus ending with a disappointing, and one-sided argument. Too bad.

 

[Terrell]

People are really threatened by this article. Whether you agree with the article or not, it's just one person's opinion. Interesting read though kami. Thanks for the link.

Some of the point by point contentions were flawed though kami. Take these.

Nothing is shown when Leia is tortured: Nothing is shown (apart from arms) when Gollum is tortured. And while we're on the subject, why did the Sandperson do a little victory dance instead of slicing Luke's skull open after he fainted?

Well, they did show a little bit of Gollum's torture. As for the Sandpeople not splitting open Luke's skull, if he remembered the film, he would have realized that Obi-Wan scared them off not only by his arrival, but by making a sound. And Obi-Wan clearly states that Sandpeople are easily frightened.

Not saying I agree with all of her points. But some of his points are off base. And those supposed inaccuracies are not inaccuracies at all. She was correct on those points. And you're right, some do make good arguments. But then I didn't expect any of them to agree with anything she said. But then again, I thought she wrote a good article, even though I didn't agree with every point. But some I did. But let's think about this. No matter what she wrote, big LOTR fans would say she's biased. Just as SW fans would if she preferred LOTR. It's just one opinion. Yet many LOTR fans act as if she's the authority. But it is fun to discuss it.

 

[Trace Downing]

Well...
One sure thing that LOTR has done. Star Trek fans are either elated or disappointed that the "what's better" debate is no longer all about them.
I've got a question...What's IIRC stand for?
Intense International Race of Champions?
Intimate & Impulsive Romantic Carnality?
Inane & Inadequate Recreational Caravan?
Inflamation and Itching of the Rectal Canal?
Seriously, I really don't know.

 

[Terrell]

One sure thing that LOTR has done. Star Trek fans are either elated or disappointed that the "what's better" debate is no longer all about them.

 

[Paul Jenkins]

Adam, I agree that the scene with Samwise was a good one, in fact I liked a few scenes from the film if you can believe it such as:
-> Frodo's initial meeting with Gandalf and the journey through the Shire to meet up with Bilbo. The story really started out great here, IMHO.
-> Gandalf's dealings with Bilbo. Mixed light humor with seriousness of the unknown-at-that-time-to-Gandalf-ring that he could tell was eating away at Bilbo (Bilbo feeling 'thin of heart' or something like that)
-> The Samwise scene you mention
-> The secret meeting in Rivendale where Frodo takes the ring when he sees the impact of what it is doing to the others and starts to realize only he can do the task that must be done.
-> Pretty much any Gandalf scene, with the exception of the break-dancing fight sequence (below), and the magical bird rescue. McKellen was simply brilliant and should get some sort of supporting actor nod, again IMHO.
-> Legolas was a great character and Bloom did a good job with his performance as well.
-> Moria and The Shire - I liked the way that WEKA created Moria and the Shire, both very good use of CGI, models and other items (like the weathered axes, books, tombs, decayed bodies, etc.)
Here are my major problems with the film (reposted from my review thread comments for clarity/ease of posting!
-> The Ringwraiths were supposed to be kings and great warriors, were they not? You'd never know if from the movie, they were incompetent and only menacing in the opening scene with Frodo. After that they were shown as weak and completely laughable, with 6 or so of them not able to get/kill Frodo (sholder stab from 3 feet, come on), and then getting bested by Aragon very easily. Then, they couldn't run down Arwen in the chase scene, getting close until she whispers in the horse's ear (in a bad edit clip btw). Then, magically, they are massively behind Arwen who has crossed the river, and they STOP for some unknown reason because she stopped and then the wonderful water crushing... Then, they completely DISAPPEAR from the rest of the movie, replaced by equally incompetent super-orcs. Baffling...
-> Pacing - Jackson didn't do well with the passing of time and the pacing of events through that time. After the first viewing I was convinced it was me given all the praise that people were heaping on it, so I was particularly looking for this and what I missed the first time. I didn't miss anything, he didn't do a good job w.r.t. pacing and time evolution in the film, IMHO.
-> The dwarf hall after the escape from the cave troll and orcs. The fellowship is surrounded by thousands of orcs who then leave because the Balrog is coming. Nice timing...
-> The Balrog versus Gandalf 'battle'. What battle? They didn't do much of anything sans for a few choice words from Gandalf and a collapse of a bridge. Not very epic or exciting, especially on 2nd viewing... Given this wonderful battle, why did the orcs' flee? The Balrog is an overblown part of this film that people swoon over, IMHO.
-> Jackson's infatuation with swooping, repeating camera shots. Trying to make it epic-feeling I suppose...
-> The acting by Tyler, Weaving and Blanchett was bad to horrendous. Tyler in particular was very flat and had the worst scene in the movie w.r.t. the Ringwraiths chase and her 'wonderful' speech across the river. Perhaps Weaving was my own fault, I couldn't separate him from the Matrix, his mannerisms and tone were so similar...
To me, the film lacked any sense of epic battle and/or struggle to me. The battle scene at the beginning was very short and simple. The aforementioned ringwraiths were pathetic. The Gandolf/Saruman battle was a bit laughable with break-dancing wizards floating around the screen. The fellowship battle with the dwarf hall orcs and cave troll was the best of the film, but it was also comical in spots, especially the troll-riding CGI and Frodo playing hide and seek behind the pillar. The Balrog battle that wasn't. Then, the "super-orcs", bred for battle and which would have appeared to number in the thousands, appeared to number in the tens during the battle sequences. Easily killed, no real sense of them having any capability to defeat anyone in the fellowship sans the comic-relief hobbits. Speaking of, the end 'charge' by the comic-relief hobbits after Boromir was killed was equally silly, IMHO.

 

[Terrell]

I had some of the same complaints Paul. But I did enjoy it and I'm looking forward to TTT. However, I must say the opneing battle of the film, and the entire opening period, gave me a major boner. Whether anyone needs to know that, is another matter. By the way, I'm speaking figuratively, not literally.

 

[Paul Jenkins]

I've got a question...What's IIRC stand for?

IIRC == If I Remember Correctly

 

[Paul Jenkins]

I had some of the same complaints Paul. But I did enjoy it and I'm looking forward to TTT. However, I must say the opneing battle of the film, and the entire opening period, gave me a major boner. Whether anyone needs to know that, is another matter. By the way, I'm speaking figuratively, not literally.

Terrell, how many times have you seen FOTR? I've seen it three times now, twice for myself and once with my daughter a couple of nights ago for Indian Princess.

The opening battle scene, IMMostHO of course, doesn't stand up on repeated viewings. It was cool on first viewing, but there isn't much to it really. If you compare it to other big battle scenes such as Saving Private Ryan, Braveheart, Gladiator, etc. it just seems very shallow. This is a big IMHO, I'm sure many like it and think the CGI is good, but to me it just doesn't hold up. (as a comparison, SPR still gives me goosebumps and holds my undivided attention during that initial 20 minutes. I generally have to pause the DVD and take a break after it...)

 

[Terrell]

Twice! I gave it a second viewing. But that's it for me. I liked it, but not enough for 3 times. Besides, I couldn't handle the theater, with it's incredibly loud sound system. And this coming from a guy who generally likes it fairly loud in a theater.
As for the battle, it's not much in terms of a battle. But it's visually and audibly spectacular. Yes, I'm a huge Gladiator fan, and it's battles were absolutely spectacular. By the way, when talking about Gladiator here, whisper.

 

[Paul Jenkins]

Yes, I'm a huge Gladiator fan, and it's battles were absolutely spectacular. By the way, when talking about Gladiator here, whisper.

Why? Gladiator is a great movie. It is one of those films that gets better on subsequent viewings. I initially gave it a B or so when I saw it at the theater. I think it was the fact that Jacquin Phoenix looks JUST LIKE Mark Cuban, the Dallas Mavericks owner... Anyway, got it on DVD and I have to have watched it a dozen times now. The acting is superb, the cinematography absolutely outstanding, and the CGI is very well done, without over doing it. There are few CGI scenes that aren't quite right, but they really did a spectacular job with Rome. This is off topic, but I had to answer that whisper quote, I'd rather shout about Gladiator then whisper, it certainly is a better film that FOTR IMHO (and it is a better film than TPM as well for anyone asking, again, IMHO )

 

[Terrell]

Many here do not think of Gladiator as fondly as I do. There have been countless arguments on Gladiator. While I agree that it's better than TPM, and for me, better than FOTR. But many do not share that sentiment. But I love it, and it's one of my favorite films. I gave it an A+. So that tells you what I thought of it. So let's just keep this from generating another argument.

 

[Kami]

However, I must say the opneing battle of the film, and the entire opening period, gave me a major boner. Whether anyone needs to know that, is another matter. By the way, I'm speaking figuratively, not literally.

Hey now..I'm not afraid to admit that it might also have been literally speaking for me.
But yeah it's not meant to be a long drawn out battle on screen...it's just part of a short 5-10 minute history of the Ring, that's it. If you want some large scale battles that actually show a lot of action, just wait for TTT and ROTK. Helms Deep and The Battle of the Pellenor Fields. Terrell - if that 2mins of footage in the prologue gave you a boner, wait for this stuff

 

[Tom Ryan]

I agree that THE battle to rival all battles, including SPR, Braveheart and Gladiator will be Helm's Deep. They spent three months STRAIGHT shooting just that scene. BTW, I also think very highly of Gladiator .
-Tom

 

[Seth Paxton]

We got the Lucas LOTR. It was Willow!

True or not, this still cracked me up.
BTW, after my 3rd viewing maybe I was too harsh on FOTR. I still prefer the OT, but just slightly.
I realized this time that FOTR was better (IMO) than I first gave it credit (and I gave it a 9 or 9.5 the first time).
I also saw less similarities this time because I saw FOTR being mostly about Gandalf and Boromir, with other stories just getting some foundation introductions for future payoffs.
ANH has full resolution for all characters in the first film and is mostly about Luke, with some Han development, and even a little less Obi-Wan and Leia development.
If FOTR was all about Frodo completing his journey things might have been different.

 

[Paul Jenkins]

I agree that THE battle to rival all battles, including SPR, Braveheart and Gladiator will be Helm's Deep. They spent three months STRAIGHT shooting just that scene.

ok, as someone who hasn't read the books (at least recent enough to remember ), can you spoiler what "Helm's Deep" is, the participants and the battles to occur?
Thanks