Lord of the Rings vs. Star Wars (Salon Magazine) (1 Viewer)

[Mike Broadman]

Yes, Sean, exactly. Boromir = hero. Hero who made a mistake, due to pressure, desperation, and some bad magic.

Someone earlier complained that there was no "alarm" system to watch out for Boromir, as he wanted the ring since the council. Well, there was an alarm- Aragorn.

Terell, here's some more about Gandalf and Obi Wan.



Gandalf comes back in full physical form, stronger in every way then before his encounter with the Balrog. But Obi Wan does the same thing. He even said to Vader right before he killed him. "If you kill me, I shall come back stronger than you can imagine," or something like that. As a ghost, Obi Wan was able to help Luke in ways he could not have done otherwise. Gandalf does the same thing: dies, and comes back stronger. The details of whether they technically died is not important. Both characters' roles in their respective movies are the same.

Balrog timing:

The Balrog came out 'cause he wanted to get them. The worst that could be said about he timing is that it's like a time bomb in a movie that goes down to the last second. It's called "suspense."

Those mines are huge, and the Balrog either didn't know or didn't care about them.

We don't know how Balrogs work, and it doesn't really matter.

That scene was typical movie stuff. If you want to criticise all movies, I'll be right there with you. But it's silly to single out this one for this detail.

Regarding the hype, my understanding was that it was all about the Balrog itself. I was never expecting some grand duel.

Wraiths:

They were "2 inches" from Frodo twice. The first time, it was just one of them, so he was very careful, and he finds his way through scent, so I didn't really know that Frodo et al were under the rock. The second time, they did get him. They figured he would become a wraith and come back to Mordor with them. They didn't count on Arwen coming along to wisk him away.

At the river, Arwen suddenly stops while being chased. She is a powerful elvin princess. If someone like that all of a sudden turns on you, wouldn't you be a bit cautious?

Another thing is, though they were once kings, they are not any more. They're really more like very strong Gollums- slaves, animals.

They were simply outsmarted.

I agree that the argument "Oh, just read the book" is completely invalid. But, in this case, you can pretty much get everything you need from the movie (with a couple of minor exceptions).

 

[Adam Lenhardt]

The acting by Tyler, Weaving and Blanchett was bad to horrendous. Tyler in particular was very flat and had the worst scene in the movie w.r.t. the Ringwraiths chase and her 'wonderful' speech across the river. Perhaps Weaving was my own fault, I couldn't separate him from the Matrix, his mannerisms and tone were so similar...

While I don't think any of the three did bad (and Blanchett quite well...), I defineately think Elrond was miscast. From the books, I always pictured him a kind, wise, powerful, exectionally well preserved old man. Weaving just didn't project the neccessary age to me...

 

[Sean Bryan]

"It isn't supposed to be excitting"

Of course it is. And it was.

Maybe people should stop refering to the "battle" between Gandalf and the Balrog, since, of course, this is misleading.

It would be more appropriate to refer to it as the "confrontation" of Gandalf and the Balrog. Or when Gandalf "stands against" the Balrog.

The scene in the movie played out just like it does in the book, and was awesome. (I love it when you realize that your heart is pounding during an excitting scene in a movie!)

So frankly, if someone is let down because that scene didn't live up to their expectations, it has nothing whatsoever to do with the film and everything to do with being misinformed about what was going to happen there.

Now, as for the next film......

 

[Stephen_L]

I've been enjoying the discussion of LOTR and thought I would add my two cents worth. First, let me stipulate that I'm a huge fan of the books and approached this film with more fear than anticipation. My fears, however, were unfounded. Peter Jackson did an outstanding job of condensing a very long book into a film that preserves the essence of the books and characters. Now to some of the comments in this thread.

Ringwraith issues: some have commented on how easily the hobbits stayed ahead of the wraiths. This is never as much of an issue in the book because the hobbits generally stay one step ahead of pursuit until Weathertop and the Ford of Bruinen. But Peter Jackson added drama to the pursuit by giving the hobbits numerous close calls that they barely escape. Using the shorthand of film I think the scenes work well, creating menace and danger. The same holds true for the horseback pursuit of Arwen. Jackson several times uses visuals figuratively rather than as literal presentation of events (remember Arwen's first appearance robed in light and white robes, although she is moments later shown wearing riding clothes) The sudden closeness of the Black Riders was Frodo's perception of them reaching out for him and the ring, not a literal representation of how close they were physically. Some were disappointed by how easily the wraiths were defeated at Weathertop and Bruinen. As will become more apparent as the story progresses, Aragorn and Arwen are not average humans; both are born of races of great power (Numenor and Elven lineage). These characters would be especially formidible to the forces of darkness. Remember that for all his power, Sauron was defeated by the Elves and Numenor and still fears them.

The scattering of the orcs in Moria: Again in the book, the Fellowship is not surrounded by orcs, but Jackson using the visual medium of film created a wonderful scene with the crawling hoards of orcs surrounding our heroes. While not literally plausable, it looks great and generates a real emotional punch as well as enhancing the fearsomeness of the Balrog to follow.

Finally I will not fault anyone who has not read the books in not enjoying the film. I confess that knowing the books intimately enabled me to fill in the material left out in characterization. In Peter Jacksons defense, he emphasized the characters whose story arcs were most pivotal in the first film- Gandalf, Frodo Boromir- while introducing us to characters that I suspect will get more development in subsequent films (Merry and Pippin, Legolas and Gimli especially shine in TT: Aragorn, Frodo, Sam and Gollum dominate ROTK)

The passage of time: I agree that the time of the Fellowships journey seems condensed. I had less of a problem with the time of the journey than I did the geography. It would have helped explain the quest if we had a sense of where the Fellowship was heading and how far it was. A brief exposition in Rivendell with Gandalf, Aragorn and Elrond examining a map and planning their course would have explained the danger of taking the Gap of Rohan, how the Redhorn gate could be a shortcut and also that the Mines of Moria were another possible route. It would have made events clearer. Jackson's decision to condense the time of the Fellowships journey makes dramatic sense. Mordor and Sauron are gaining power each day. The path grows more dangerous by the hour. Moving events quickly gives the quest urgency. (Now that I think about it, it makes more sense than the Fellowship idling for weeks in Lorien)

Sorry for the long answers, but even as a fanatic on the books I appreciate Jackson's creation, short cuts, story-changes and all.

 

[Terrell]

Mike, I see your point. Obi-Wan did come back strong. My point was Gandalf came back in physical form, whereas Obi-Wan didn't. Or at least I was taold Gandalf comes back in physical form. But they do share the distinction of coming back stronger than ever.

 

[Kami]

I must say kami, Star Wars may be number one in my heart, but I'm gonna have a lot of fun with this LOTR trilogy.

I've said this many times before, but in my opinion TTT is the best book of the trilogy and this movie is seriously going to whomp some ass. Did you also know they spent 3 months filming the Helms Deep scenes? I don't know how reliable the source was, but hey. If this is true then lets just say they will be doing that part of the book justice and then some.

 

[Eric Bass]

It wasn't really until the 4th viewing that I really caught this, but in reference to this problem...

but then they get to the river and she is like 100 yards ahead of them

The wraiths are right on her until they hit the trees close to the river. Then Arwen starts dodging in and out of trees and through superior horsemanship comes to the river far ahead of the wraiths.

I'm starting to think it's very difficult to really judge this film without seeing it a bunch of times. I for one have seen the trolls they camp underneath on the way to Rivendell, but I only noticed them once out of four viewings. I really wonder when the DVD comes out and I can watch this movie a few more times whether or not more and more details will surface and how many supposed 'flaws' will in fact be due to details missed. I definately think it's not a movie to be judged on one viewing, maybe not even two. And really until all 3 come out it's not very easy to judge the story.

On the Balrog/Gandalf faceoff, I personally love it. Big dramatic fights are cool enough, but sometimes it's neat to see something happen more along the lines of how big fights probably do..that being very quickly. The standoff takes up like a paragraph in the book, but somehow it's even more real, if such a thing is possible in fantasy, that it's over in a split second. I didn't really like the drawn out fight between Sauroman and Gandalf, it definately could have been another brief standoff and been much better than the shoving match we had to sit through. Gandalf had to keep the thing from crossing the bridge and he did so, a big fight doesn't help the story at all, even if it would have looked cool.

 

[Seth Paxton]

The wraiths are right on her until they hit the trees close to the river. Then Arwen starts dodging in and out of trees and through superior horsemanship comes to the river far ahead of the wraiths.

Actually something I noticed the 2nd time and verified the 3rd is that Arwen does what Glorfindel does in the book, which is to whisper some Elvish into the horse's ear which makes it run faster.

She does this and then pulls away to get to the river so far ahead I believe.

Of course this sort of discussion is probably better over in the FOTR discussion thread.

 

[Seth Paxton]

Terrell

Gandalf doesn't die, they just fall into a deep underworld abyss. It's not Gilgamesh here visting "hell", just a deep and ancient part of the world. (iirc)

But thanks to this "trial by fire" Gandalf is "reborn" the white wizard. Sadly left out of the FOTR is that Saruman has renamed himself from "the White" to Saruman of "many colors". That is critical in creating a void for "the white" to be filled by Gandalf, going from Grey to White. Also it should not be lost that white is actually all colors combined, which is Saruman's point, but it also shows his corruption and flawed persona.

Basically they fight on the way down I believe, and upon reaching the bottom Gandalf defeats the Balrog and wanders the wilderness in half a daze. I need to read that section again.

 

[Josh_Hill]

I saw LOTR yesterday for my 9th time and this is just amazing. I havent felt like this about anything since I got into Star Wars. Im so glad Jackson made this film.

 

[Matt Stone]

want to read books to attempt to make the film better. I haven't read any of the Godfather books, the films are great without them, but thanks

I don't think anyone is telling you to read the books to make the film better...but why in god's name would you refuse to read good books, seemingly out of spite. I personally don't think one should have an effect on another.

Anyway, as far as the whole "competition" is going...and this will probably surprise Terrell, I'm a huge Star Wars fan. I've probably spent around 5,000 smackers on merchandise in the past...because frankly I'm obsessed. I've had numerous fan-pages and everything...but the experience I had reading LotR (read it the first time last year) was unlike any other experience I've ever had. It conflicted immediatly with my "inner-Jedi" and made my head hurt...hehe. Suddenly I realized, I don't have to like one better than the other, I can like them both, woo hoo! So I've been happy ever since...hehe.

As far as the film comparrisons go, it's moot at this point. We are comparing one movie to a trilogy, which isn't right. Also, like Seth said, it's a bitch adapting a book into a movie (In my opinion best done with LA Confidential...different stories to an extent, but the same feel to both film and book), and in the case of LotR it's even more of a bitch because Jackson is essentially adapting one book into a trilogy. In addition he would probably like to include info from the countless volumes of the history of Middle-Earth.

Still, based upon the simple facts that I've read the books, it makes the movie better. I can't place myself in the shoes of someone who hasn't read the books, because I have already. I'm not going to defend the movie with a "Read the books" comment...don't read them if you want to, but don't ignore them because you didn't like the movie. At the same time no one can say which is the better trilogy at this point. Terrell, you point out the good character development in the OT, I agree with you...but you can't dismiss LotR just yet...becuase we're only 1/3 through their development.

Oh...and also, a little side note...Terrell, you said that Boromir was comparable to Darth Vader, not quite...he's closer to Han. Boromir isn't a bad guy, he's just doesn't see the grand picture until the end of his life.

 

[Terrell]

Matt, you are correct. It is but the first film. My point was that the characters in the first Star Wars film ANH, had very good character development, while in FOTR they didn't. That's just my opinion. Now, maybe they will get better development in the next two. But Star Wars had it in all 3 films. TPM didn't have a lot of character development either. It had some, but not as much as I wanted.

As for adapting the book, I agree. It is very difficult to adapt a book like this, and I commend Jackson for his work. I enjoyed the film and give it thumbs up. But I just didn't think it was as great as a lot of people seem to think. But good nonetheless.

As for Boromir, yes he is like Han. He is like Vader as well. My point being that they both redeemed themselves. The reason I stated Vader is because Vader was a bad guy throughout the films, then redeemed himself at the end. Han redeemed himself very early in the trilogy, and was never a bad guy, only selfish. I felt Boromir was mostly untrustworthy and somewhat bad, and redeemed himself at the end as well. But he's not as evil as Vader. That's true. Just tempted by the ring to try and do some bad things.

 

[Ryan Peter]

Boromir was tempted to do good things with the ring. And he is in no way untrustworthy until that one moment when he goes after Frodo. Everything he did until then was heroic. He then quickly redeems himself, just like Solo.

 

[Josh_Hill]

Matt, you are correct. It is but the first film. My point was that the characters in the first Star Wars film ANH, had very good character development, while in FOTR they didn't. That's just my opinion. Now, maybe they will get better development in the next two. But Star Wars had it in all 3 films. TPM didn't have a lot of character development either. It had some, but not as much as I wanted.

What the hell do you mean by 'good' character development? If your saying that FOTR doesnt have character development, I should shoot u now.

 

[Ryan Peter]

Donny, can you please edit your post so Terrell shoots first?

 

[Matt Stone]

Terrell, Once again I think it's an issue of you missing something. I explained the character dev in the LOTR thread to you...but you're a hard nut to crack, hehe. No matter though...I still say that you can't compare the development from FotR to ANH because you've already seen the entire Star Wars Trilogy, and it's not like you can "unlearn what you have learned" from that, just like I can't unlean what I've read in LotR...no matter how hard you try you can't. An example would be that you say you're comparing one movie to one movie, and yet you bring up the fact that Vader get's redemption...that was in Jedi, the 3'rd movie.

But don't worry ... I'm not going to shoot you, like some members here, hehehe.

 

[Paul Case]

Donny, can you please edit your post so Terrell shoots first?

 

[Terrell]

Then you better get to shooting. Sorry! I just don't see any character development in FOTR. I guess if I had to push it, there was slight character development. But that's it. What I basically saw was a bunch of characters thrust into this journey without much explanation as to who they are, where they came from, and why they were chosen. Yes, I know Frodo inherits a ring of great power, but that's pretty much it. As for ANH, I'm not basing the character development on the entire trilogy. I'm saying the first film, ANH, has good character development on it's own, irregardless of the next two films.

 

[Tom-G]

If your saying that FOTR doesnt have character development, I should shoot u now.

FOTR had minimal character development. Fire away!

 

[Sean Bryan]

"I felt Boromir was mostly untrustworthy and somewhat bad, and redeemed himself at the end as well. But he's not as evil as Vader. That's true. Just tempted by the ring to try and do some bad things."

SIGH