Lord of the Rings vs. Star Wars (Salon Magazine) (1 Viewer)

[James Zubb]

The verdict? "LOTR" isn't a bad movie, but its wide acclaim shows just how much our story standards have declined, even as our visual standards have skyrocketed.

Has not this same argument been made about Star Wars? How cinema has been in decline since the advent of the summer blockbuster?

Old argument, things just aren't as good as they were in the old days. Our memory has a wonderful habit of becoming selective as we age...

 

[Kami]

ok, as someone who hasn't read the books (at least recent enough to remember ), can you spoiler what "Helm's Deep" is, the participants and the battles to occur?

 

[Terrell]

I must say kami, Star Wars may be number one in my heart, but I'm gonna have a lot of fun with this LOTR trilogy. Thank God we have two great fantasy franchises. Now all we need is a couple of more to look forward two. Someone please create an epic Conan trilogy telling one story. I liked Arnold's, but it didn't live up to what that story can. Also, make some more great fantasy films. Hopefully, both Episodes I-III and the LOTR trilogy can spur on this genre with their success. Harry Potter included.

 

[Josh_Hill]

Ok, I just read the article and bear in mind that I have been a SW fan for all my life. I dont think this persons even read LOTR. SW more human that LOTR, I dont really see that, they both carry similar characters (Gandalf/Obi-Wan) and in both, the characters are interestng and 3-d. I mean, they are two of the greatest stories ever told, can we not just end this stupid comparison of these two magnificant stories. But, hey, whatever floats your boat.

 

[Mark Zimmer]

Star Wars has 3D characters? Don't make me laugh. They're shamelessly cardboard characters lifted directly from old serials (except the robots, who are swiped from Kurosawa, but they function pretty much like Gabby Hayes and Pat Buttram). It's just 20+ years of playing with action figures that has given them all this personality.

 

[Terrell]

It's just 20+ years of playing with action figures that has given them all this personality.

Why even bother with a response? But here goes. Mark, if you post another comment such as "playing with action figures has given them personality," you'll have all of us laughing. I don't know what film you saw, but there aren't a lot films that have characters with as much personality as Star Wars.

 

[David Oliver]

Ok, I just read the article and bear in mind that I have been a SW fan for all my life. I dont think this persons even read LOTR.

Donny,

You aren't alone in making htis kind of complaint but it is not valid. She was writing about the movie, not the book. If reading the book is a pre-requisite to understand and/or anjoy a movie then the movie is a failure. Mind you, I am not saying that I agree (although I do agree with some of her points), but calling out someone for misunderstanding points in the movie because they have not read the book is irrelevant.

 

[MickeS]

Paul jenkins, you did a good summary of what's bad about the movie. I don't agree about the Balrog scene though, that whole sequence (from when they entered the cave until they came out) was great.

/Mike

 

[Terrell]

All I know is kami's Helm's Deep sig pic is getting me aroused for an awesome battle.

 

[Mike Broadman]

The dwarf hall after the escape from the cave troll and orcs. The fellowship is surrounded by thousands of orcs who then leave because the Balrog is coming. Nice timing...

The orcs left because they feared the Balrog. No "timing" at all. It illustrated the fact that no one but Gandalf could face Balrog.

I can understand and agree with some of the other criticisms, but the ones above just ain't so.

Quite frankly, almost all of the criticisms I see and hear about LOTR can be just as easily applied to Star Wars.

 

[Terrell]

Mike, that quote was by me. I was quoting a guy from onering.net. Someone told me that Gandalfdoesn't die
I took them at their word since I've never read books. But I think what the author of the article was say was good guys do die in Star Wars. Not necessarily that they come back in ghost form.

 

[Eric Bass]

Actually to be perfectly accurate in a mega-geek sort of way:

Gandalf does die, more or less. He and the Balrog essentially kill each other, but as Gandalf is good he gets sent back by the gods newly promoted to head wizard.

Tolkien doesn't really say that in as many words, but it's more or less what he implies. I'll be interested to see how the movies handle it.

 

[Mike Broadman]

Either you guys are just picking on semantics, or I'm not understanding something (I apologise if it's the latter).

Both wizards die. both come back

And anyonw who says that good guys don't die in LOTR... hello, did that person take a bathroom break when Boromir was slaughtered?

Opinions are one thing. Mistakes are another.

To clear up the Gandalf dieing thing



Gandalf, first of all, is not a man with superpowers: he is more akin to a spirit or angel. This is explained in the Silmarillion, but is implied when he and Elrond refer to "race of Men," implying that Gandalf is not of that race. And he certainly isn't a dwarf, elf, or hobbit.

He and the Balrog essentially kill each other. It is analogous to what happened to Sauron after Isuldur cut the ring from his finger: physically destroyed, but spirit still survives. Gandalf had ties to the ancient Gods, whose only connection to Middle Earth is through the wizards. Realising that Saruman had corrupted his position as head of the White Council, Gandalf takes his place as Gandalf the White.

 

[Eric Bass]

I tend to agree with the critical views of the Wringwraiths in the movie. In the books you don't get rid of them by tossing something 5 feet away and making a run for it. And Aragorn would get his butt handed to him in a direct fight with a group of them. Gandalf puts it best, I believe while explaining it to Frodo:

"I doubt even an elf lord such as Glorindel could stand alone against the nine."

Seeing as how Glorfindel is thousands of years old and killed the king of the Balrogs, that's saying a lot.

 

[Terrell]

Hmm, personally, I don't know. Obi-Wan does die. His ghost comes back. My only question is does Gandalf's ghost come back, or does he come back himself. If Gandalf himself comes back, then it's not quite the same as with Obi-Wan. At least in this argument, the LOTR supporters are cheating in saying that Gandalf dies, but he comes back himself. Obi-Wan himself doesn't come back.


As for Boromir, you could say he redeemed himself, but I never really considered him a good guy in the sense that Aragorn, Obi-Wan, and Yoda were good guys. Saying Boromir is a good guy is amlost the same as saying Darth Vader is a good guy.

 

[Eric Bass]

Unfortunately, and here comes the same excuse you've heard over and over, they didn't have time to get into that part of the story. Boromir is definately a good guy. He's suppose to be a bit arrogant, eldest son of the ruler of Gondor and set up to rule someday. But they explain him as a great war general, always out leading his men in the fight against the awakening evil in Mordor. In the movie he's not much more than just another guy, but there is really supposed to be more to him than that. Maybe some of the cut scenes will have more Boromir in them, it'd sure be nice.

 

[Paul Jenkins]

The orcs left because they feared the Balrog. No "timing" at all. It illustrated the fact that no one but Gandalf could face Balrog.

WHAT?? No timing at all? 1/2 second later the fellowship would have been dead. But no, they are saved at the last second because of the Balrog, which gives them a chance to run away (just had a thought of Monty Python in that "run away, run away" , but I digress...)
And, the Balrog battle is nothing, IMHO. He sees Gandalf, stops, gets out a nice little whip, attempts to hit Gandalf who causes the bridge to collapse, the Balrog disappears. Sorry, that is not in the least a good battle to me.
I stand by my views on the weak points of the film, YMMV

 

[Sean Bryan]

Oh, come on. Boromir is certainly a "good guy" (if you want to use that kind of distinction for characters).

What is the argument for saying he isn't? Certainly there can be no argument for saying he is a "bad guy".

All from the MOVIE (not relying on the book):

**SPOLIERS**

He is the son of the leader of a great people, a people who have been living under the threat of war and destruction from an evil power that has been gaining strength along their borders for years.

He loves his country (Gondor) and his father and his family's place as rulers of their people. But he also feels that his father is looking to him to make everything right, and feels that weight.

He, being the son of the Steward (keeper/ruler when there is no line of kings) of Gondor, feels threatend by the idea that Aragorn is the Heir to the throne of Gondor (as many in his position of power would be when faced suddenly with that kind of threat of replacement). Thus, he isn't entirely warm towards Aragorn or accepting of him at first. "Gondor needs no King."

He is made aware of the finding of the ring, a source of great power that, if used by his people, would (without argument) result in them defeating all who threaten them.

He simply does not understand, as many do not, that the evil that gives the ring its power would ultimately turn whoever wields it to evil purposes, creating simply another Dark Lord. He argues the case for using the ring for victory over Saron. The counsel, being wiser, decides the ring should be destroyed.

Although Bormoir believes the mission to be folly, he still respects that this is the decision of the counsel and honorably goes along to help them (he is also going that way to return home).

He bonds with Mery and Pipin.

He fights along side the Fellowship valiantly in Moria.

He morns for Gandalf. And when Aragorn is trying to get everyone up and moving quickly away from Moria's exit (of course, the wise thing to do becasue of the threat of the orcs when the sun sets) but yet everyone is lost in grief over the fall of Gandalf, Boromir pleads with Aragorn "For pity's sake! Give them a moment!" (the thoughtful, caring thing to do).

So he's not a good guy? Why was that? Oh, yes, because he was tempted by the ring. Becasue he tried to take the ring from Frodo. Because he thought their mission was foolish? Sorry, that doesn't make him lose "good guy status". First of all, their mission was/is foolish. Everyone in the Fellowship knows it. But it was simply the only choice they had. They couldn't use the ring. They couldn't hide it (for long). Attempting to take the ring to Mordor is the only choice, although they all feel that they are very unlikely to succeed. Boromir simply expresses this feeling more strongly. And he is understandably worried that they are simply taking the ring right to Sauron, which would result in all of their deaths or enslavement all the sooner.

Second of all, one of the major points driven home through the whole frick'n movie was that the power of the ring was very seductive and could corrupt even the most valiant men with the best of intentions. Gandalf would not even touch the thing. Boromir being taken by madness and trying to take the ring does not mean that he wasn't good. He was seduced by it's power, and only for a moment.

Once he regained his senses and realized what he tried to do, he was filled with grief.

He again fought valiantly to try and save Merry and Pipin, and fell a hero.

In his last moments, he accepted Aragorn as his king.

Yeah, definitely not good guy material.

(All character insights from the MOVIE only)

 

[Ryan Peter]

Paul, who said it was a great battle? It's an awesome scene, but no battle. And if you think the fellowship would have been killed by those orcs, you're flat out wrong. Read the next few books and see what happens in larger battles. You underestimate these warriors.

 

[Paul Jenkins]

Read the next few books and see what happens in larger battles. You underestimate these warriors.

No thanks, I don't want to read books to attempt to make the film better. I haven't read any of the Godfather books, the films are great without them, but thanks.