Lest we forget why we celebrate the 4th of July . . . (1 Viewer)

[Kirk Gunn]

Thanks Lew - I'm daft.

 

[BrianB]

And Margaret Thatcher famously was the daughter of a greengrocer.

 

[Michael Reuben]

Historians would be more likely to know it. The usual spelling is "Uti Possidetis", meaning "as you now possess". Your definition is essentially correct; according to one of the major legal dictionaries, the term refers to "a principle in international law that recognizes a peace treaty between parties as vesting each with the territory and property under its control unless otherwise stipulated".

M.

 

[Kevin Hewell]

Cees Alons wrote:



To a southerner, them's fightin' words.

I'm not an historian but I did major in history and everything Lew and Michael said seems to agree with what I remember.

Happy 4th!

 

[Cees Alons]

I know.
But I used the word in that specific context to make another point.


Cees

 

[Dennis Nicholls]

Hey it's not as bad as calling Steve Christou a "limey Greek"....

 

[Maurice McCone]

so we WERE still fighting in 1812 as I said, I would have thought that capturing your capital was pretty important. The troops that did the fighting in the American wars were not the crack troops which had just wooped Boney's arse !

I do understand some Americans do get the dates of their wars mixed up...David you are from Boston...and the memorial in the centre of Boston Common records WW1 1917-1919.....jees, everyone knows it started in 1914 !! mind you , you were late for the next one as well

The 4th of July is famous though for the anniversary of the last war the USA won without the Brits being on your side !

WWI - won with the Brits
ww2 - won with the Brits
Korea - draw, with the Brits
Vietnam....oh dear
Grenada....beaten by students, not great
Somalia...emmm?
Gulf War 1 - win..with the Brits
Iraq - yep another win with the Brits

 

[Kevin Hewell]

Mexican-American War - no British involvement

Spanish-American War - no British involvement


?

 

[ChristopherDAC]

POINT: Monarchs of Great Britain have been removed by Parliament. Specifically James II of England and VII of Scotland was ejected due to the fear of the rising middle class, mostly Nonconformists, that he would reintroduce Roman Catholicism to England. William III of Orange [of the family of the Stadthouders of the Netherlands, an office which like the Holy Roman Empire was elective but practically confined to one family] and his wife Mary Stuart [a relation of James] were brought in, on the specific understanding that henceforth the monarchy was to defer to Parliament. One may argue that it has been taken a bit far of late, but the principle was established at the end of the XVII century.

POINT: One of Jefferson's original charges against George III [king of England and Brunswick and elector of Hanover] was that he had permitted the slave trade. Jefferson, though a slaveholder, wanted the institution of slavery abolished because it was inconsistent with his ideas about politics. The passage begins "He has waged cruel war agaist human nature itself" and was stricken at the insistence of the Southern delegates.

POINT: British historians may well consider the War of 1812 a continuation of the War of Independence; that is an orthodox view of American historians, owing to the fact that the war began over the question of naturalisation. To be specific: The Royal Navy has the legal power to press into service any commoner subject to the Crown. During the Napoleonic Wars, the demand for sailors was so great that vessels of the Royal Navy began stopping American and other foreign ships in search of Naval deserters and any other Englishmen they could seize. In so doing they specifically ignored patents of American citizenship, thus [in effect] denying the sovreignty of the United States. The public outcry over this was so great that an army was raised in the Northeast which marched into the town of Windsor [now Toronto], then the capitol of the province of Lower Canada, and burnt it to the ground. In retaliation, the British forces in the area invaded the United States, and did not stop until they had burnt the American capitol at Washington. The United States won only two major victories in this war, at New Orleans on land under Jackson after the official end of the war [postal service was not so reliable in those days] and the naval Battle of Lake Erie under Perry [brother to the Perry who opened Japan], but the Peace of Ghent, forced by the British commercial interests, finally settled the outstanding questions, thus bringing a complete end to Anglo-American hostilities. In fact, the result of the war was the very first Strategic Arms Limitation Treaty, under which the naval forces to be maintained by the U.S. and Canada on the Great Lakes are strictly limited.

 

[Erik.Ha]

I have to take issue with much of this... While the UK has not had the racial divides the States have had, that's fairly simple to accomplish because you're a much more homogeneous society. Still that hasn't stopped you from finding disagreements, even bordering on barbarism, with your own countrymen... Newsflash. The Scots and the Irish aren't crazy in love with the British, and the history of violence between the three is no less bloody than the history of our racial tensions. It is human nature to segregate into groups in an us versus them mentality, and since the U.K. lacks any true racial divisions, you've discovered religion to tear you apart. The U.K.s divisions have always been over religion, Catholic versus Protestant, and just because your religious divides are now cloaked in football jerseys and insensitive fight songs, rather than hoods and flaming crosses, doesn't make it any less real. Just because the violence is carried out by mobs with bats and clubs after the "Protestant team" plays the "catholic team", rather than lynch mobs with ropes after a few beers at the Moose lodge, doesn't make the violence any less deadly. Of course these religious zealots don't represent the MAJORITY off the U.K., but neither did the KKK represent the majority of Americans as you seem to suggest. Still the same, it doesn't suggest that the U.K. is any more socially enlightened than the U.S...

As far as health care... Nobody is denied medical treatment here either. Anybody, regardless of ability to pay, can walk into any emergency room and receive treatment... and they do... every day. There is a lot of hand ringing over how many Americans don't have health insurance. However, the uninsured aren't denied treatment as the argument seems to be spun... The problem is, some fail to realize that insurance is just that. It is a voluntary program to INSURE against the UNEXPECTED, and many of those uninsured (especially the young, single and healthy) feel like rolling the dice that they will not get sick, and would rather spend the insurance money elsewhere. I myself only recently purchased full insurance coverage after not having it for over ten years.... Why??? I didn't need it... I was healthy and didn't have a family to care about and wasn't worried about it...I also knew if anything REALLY bad happened, (like a car wreck) I would be treated... Despite the fact that I wasn't particularly concerned about my lack of health insurance (I could have EASILY afforded it, but didn't "need" it). There were A LOT of people (apparently some in other countries) who were terribly concerned about my under-insurance... To them I say, IM FINE!!! LEAVE ME ALONE!

 

[Jason_Els]

[c]Letter from John Adams to Abigail Adams, 3 July 1776[/c]

But on the other Hand, the Delay of this Declaration to this Time, has many great Advantages attending it. -- The Hopes of Reconciliation, which were fondly entertained by Multitudes of honest and well meaning tho weak and mistaken People, have been gradually and at last totally extinguished. -- Time has been given for the whole People, maturely to consider the great Question of Independence and to ripen their judgments, dissipate their Fears, and allure their Hopes, by discussing it in News Papers and Pamphletts, by debating it, in Assemblies, Conventions, Committees of Safety and Inspection, in Town and County Meetings, as well as in private Conversations, so that the whole People in every Colony of the 13, have now adopted it, as their own Act. -- This will cement the Union, and avoid those Heats and perhaps Convulsions which might have been occasioned, by such a Declaration Six Months ago.

But the Day is past. The Second Day of July 1776, will be the most memorable Epocha, in the History of America.

I am apt to believe that it will be celebrated, by succeeding Generations, as the great anniversary Festival. It ought to be commemorated, as the Day of Deliverance by solemn Acts of Devotion to God Almighty. It ought to be solemnized with Pomp and Parade, with Shews, Games, Sports, Guns, Bells, Bonfires and Illuminations from one End of this Continent to the other from this Time forward forever more.

You will think me transported with Enthusiasm but I am not. -- I am well aware of the Toil and Blood and Treasure, that it will cost Us to maintain this Declaration, and support and defend these States. -- Yet through all the Gloom I can see the Rays of ravishing Light and Glory. I can see that the End is more than worth all the Means. And that Posterity will tryumph in that Days Transaction, even altho We should rue it, which I trust in God We shall not.

 

[Jason_Els]

Adams, however, was not without his humor:

 

[Yee-Ming]

Curious: Adams says the 2nd day of July 1776 would be remembered, yet now it's the 4th. IIRC, because most signed the Declaration on the 4th rather than the 2nd? And didn't someone sign it very much later (i.e. a number of years later)?

 

[Dennis Nicholls]

The delegates had signed the Declaration by the 3rd, and the 4th was the day of public announcement (i.e. the "press release").

 

[Jason_Els]

From A User's Guide to the Declaration of Independence:


Actually, only John Hancock and Secretary Charles Thomson signed the declaration after approval by the Continental Congress. The majority of the signers penned their names on August 2, 1776 but a few signed later than that such as Matthew Thornton who I believe signed in November. Although there may be some controversy about this as far as I know, the last signer was Thomas McKean in 1781.

P.S. - The reason New York delayed was because the New York delegation to the Continental Congress never, ever received any instructions on any vote from the government of New York (it seems nothing has changed in 228 years). The New York delegation took their own personal initiative to sign anyway after some debate. The fact that Francis Lewis's wife was taken prisoner, his sons volunteered to the Continental Army, and most of his enormous estate destroyed thus ruining him financially for the rest of his life was no small factor.