LCD vs CRT vs projection- what's best for gaming?

Discussion in 'Displays' started by Jay_Worth, May 19, 2004.

  1. Jay_Worth

    Jay_Worth Extra

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    OK, I've got a bit of a situation here.

    I bought a 40 inch LG rear projection TV the other day. Long story short, I have to take it back... at the store, I was told that it had 720p, and it DOESN'T... naturally, I'm frustrated and I'm taking it back.

    I've had a bit of problems with it, anyway. First off, I bought it STRICTLY for gaming... I don't care about watching DVDS, or HDTV channels, or anything like that.

    I have Xbox, PS2 and Gamecube... Xbox looks good on it. However, when I play PS2 (with component cables), even the games that do support 480p, there is way too much motion blur when the screen is moving too fast. I don't know if anyone here has played Transformers, but it's an extremely detailed game, with huge environments. Well, the motion blur during fast driving sequences is unbearable. Standing still, it looks great.

    Even the Xbox has some quirks... it's very subtle, but you can see lines ''ghosted'' or trailing when, again, there's lots of movement. Skating fast in ESPN Hockey... you'll see the blue/redlines with a subtle trailer behind them as they scroll across the clear ice surface. Rallisport Challenge 2- you can see the same phenomena happening with trees that are against clear sky. It stands out against that background. I don't generally notice the motion blur problem with the Xbox, unless I look for it... but trails and (I think) ghosts are visible with a little searching. Much moreso than my old TV (regular, run of the mill 20 incher).

    I know that an HDTV this size will bring out all the flaws and artifacts and things, and I accept that. I'm no graphics whore, and jaggies are fine with me. But generally, Xbox looks pretty good, though not perfect... and PS2 is a blurry mess. I went back to play on my 20 incher to look for the things I'm noticing on the HDTV, and I didn't notice them. I've heard there are calibration DVDS and things like that. Obviously, I don't have one. I've only had this TV for 4 days, and it's going back on Saturday.

    Anyway, so when I take this thing back to the store, I'm going to have to get another one. Keep in mind, this is STRICTLY for video gaming. I just want what's best for that kind of movement and display. No blurring or anything like that. You really notice it in games, moreso than movies and things. It disrupts the experience.

    Should I be looking at CRT, as opposed to the other types? That seems to be the general consensus from the people I've talked to. Better for gaming. I don't mind the bulky size or anything. Looks and aesthetics are a non-issue.

    Is it possible to get a TV with (roughly) the following specifications.... they're ALL a necessity for me... I need one with all these features, or bust.
    1- widescreen
    2- 30-35 inches
    3- 480i/480p/720p/1080i
    4- and I'm assuming I should be looking at a CRT. That's what I've been told from a couple of very helpful and knowledgeable people. But I do like to ask around and get different views and recommendations.

    I paid 2000 for my rear projection, and I'm willing to pay more if I HAVE too... what would I expect to pay for a CRT TV with the above specs?

    Does anyone have any suggestions, or any input at all?
     
  2. Matthew Todd

    Matthew Todd Second Unit

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    I don't know if this would meet the 30-35 inch requirement, but have you considered a small used CRT front projector? The only problem might be getting it to display as small a picture as 35 inches. Can you even consider front projection?

    I think the difficulty outside of CRT front projection is finding something that will do a native 480i/480p/720p/1080i. As far as I know, only a CRT can do this, and I don't know of any standard commercially available CRT RPTVs that do this (although such a thing may exist).

    Matt
     
  3. Jay_Worth

    Jay_Worth Extra

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    Well... 30-35 inches is a bit flexible, I guess! The one I have right now is 40, and it's a fine size. In fact, the only REAL must-haves would be that it can do 720p and 1080i, and be widescreen. I couldn't do with 4:3, and I'll need 720p when the next gen consoles come around. The rest, I'm a bit unclear on... concerning what kind of TV I should be looking for.
     


  4. Based on what I've read: most CRTs don't do 720p and most LCDs/DLPs don't do 1080i.

    The new Sony GrandWEGA 42" LCDs look great for games, but they are 720p fixed.

    As I understand it, very few games run internally @ 1080i anyway, the Xbox just scales the resolution to match your TV settings.

    BTW, my PS2 games look like a blurry mess too, but that's probably got more to do with PS2's old tech.

    The few PS2 games that support native prog scan should look better though.
     
  5. DaveF

    DaveF Moderator
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    I'm not a serious gamer, but I think my GameCube looks fantastic on my 36" Sony Wega (HD). I use the component cable connectors for 480p (where supported). I've never noticed any streaking like you describe. I don't know if it's the best solution for your desires, but I suggest checking it out.
     
  6. Jay_Worth

    Jay_Worth Extra

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    ''Based on what I've read: most CRTs don't do 720p and most LCDs/DLPs don't do 1080i.''

    Yeah, I've done some searching, and I'm having trouble finding what I need. But I've found a few that do what I need, via google

    Someone on Gamefaqs pointed out this TV to me...

    '' Sony 30" 16:9 XBR® FD Trinitron® WEGA® Television with Free SU-30XBR1 Stand
    KV30XBR910KIT.
    its about $1999.99 and its more expensive because its an XBR( meaning all possible features). The 34" version of this set is the same only its $ 2,499.99 and it comes with the stand too. ( 1080i, 720p, 480p). Check this out:''

    Sounds like what I need... price is a bit steep... does anybody know anything about this TV or other similar models? I don't think I want an LCD... or plasma.

    ''As I understand it, very few games run internally @ 1080i anyway, the Xbox just scales the resolution to match your TV settings.''

    That's true. Only about 2 or 3. About 20 or so run at 720p. But in the future, these resolutions will be in wide use, and I want to be ready! I don't want to drop another 2000 in 3 years because Halo 3 doesn't look up to par.

    ''BTW, my PS2 games look like a blurry mess too, but that's probably got more to do with PS2's old tech.
    The few PS2 games that support native prog scan should look better though.''

    That's true. But even games that DO run in PS, like Ratchet and Clank 2, Syphon Filter- Omega Strain, and Jak 2 give me major headaches.

    I should note... I'm using third party component cables for both PS2 and Xbox. I haven't had time to get the official ones. Maybe that has something to do with it?. Probably not.

    Anyway, thanks for the input so far.

    DaveF- does that support 720p? Is it widescreen?
     


  7. Check out the GrandWEGAs at Best Buy, they are typically hooked up to an Xbox for a reason.

    They are big, bright, and give you alot of immersion in the game.

    A smaller direct-view CRT won't do that, although movie buffs love them for the best absolute picture.

    I also don't think that LCD suffers from burn-in, something you might want to consider.
     
  8. Jay_Worth

    Jay_Worth Extra

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    Here's what I've been told about LCDs (I have no experience whatsoever with them)

    ''LCD TVs:
    negatives- small sizes now. Much motion blurring. Light source can blow out but is replaceable. Can get "dead cells"( dead pixels )Funny native resolutions which means scaling(see post to SynOr). Must have HIGH contrast ratio and dot pitch for high quality signals (DVD, HDTV, GAMES). EXPENSIVE!!!
    positives- No burn in problems. Sexy. Slim. Light weight.''

    Motion blurring is the problem I've been having with the rear projection... but if you think an LCD TV might be good for what I need, I'll definitely look into it.

    Though I might not be able to afford it... I don't want to pay for anything flat or ''slim'', I don't mind a huge bulky sumo sized TV ;-). As long as the picture is going to be clear and good in motion.
     
  9. John Doh

    John Doh Stunt Coordinator

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    Jay,

    Go with a DLP screen. They are THE best for gaming and will also NEVER suffer from any screen burn. I have played Xbox and PS2 on a buddys DLP (Samsung) and it was beautiful! You can get the Sammy 43" version for $3K and the nicer 46" version for $3300. All resolution are 720p native. It converts everthing to 720p and being you are niot real interested in reg TV programming, the lack of excellent PQ will not be a factor. However, whenever you do tap these sets capabilities to display high-def, you will be pleasantly amazed! They cost a little more than what you previously paid, but why short-change your gaming portal. BTW, I have also seen gaming on a few LCDs, even the Grand WEGA by Sony and I noticed motion blurr on them while playing PGR2 and NFS:Underground. I would steer clear of LCD technology especially since LCOS is going to eventually take it's market share in the next few years anyways (this hasn't happened yet, but look for it).
    The only issue with the DLP's I mentioned above is that there is not a single component video input on the back of the TV that will handle all resolutions (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i). Like I mentioned before, everything is converted to 720p, but where this comes into play is with the Xbox. The Xbox's dashboard during boot-up is displayed in 480i. On the current Sammy DLPs, there isn't a component video input for HD that also supports 480i. What this means is that if you want to play a game in HD (720p/1080i) you have to be plugged into the component input for HD. If you want to access your dashboard, you have to plug it into the component input designated strictly for 480i/480p. Kinda sucks, however, I have confirmed with Samsung that this problem is fixed for the new lineup of Sammy DLP dropping in the next few months (HLP series). Hope this helps!!
     
  10. Jay_Worth

    Jay_Worth Extra

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    John- Thanks. I'm unfamiliar with DLP., what's the deal with that? Sounds awesome. BUT... 43 inch, 3k? That's JUST out of my price range... I don't think I could pay for them. But if I can find one, I just might be tempted... I suppose I could get some financial help.

    Anything of a similar quality, in a smaller size? I don't mind that seperate component port problem.

    How big are these TVs, physically? Big fat things, or flat panel?
     
  11. DaveF

    DaveF Moderator
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    My Sony Wega is a 4:3 TV with an anamorphic 'squeeze' -- it compresses the rasters for true-widescreen format for DVDs and some games. But I play games in 4:3 format, not widescreen.

    It is an HDTV and should accept 720p and 1080i signals, but I don't know what its actual resolutions are. Viewing digital photos off of a memory stick it appears to support 1024x768 in 4:3 mode.

    Since you require widescreen -- are there that many widescreen games? -- you could look at the widescreen Wega.

    I think what you get depends on how much you want to spend. For less than $2000 in the 32 - 36" range, direct-view set is the best choice. If you want want a larger TV, >40" for the same budget, then a CRT-based RPTV is a great solution. If you're willing to spend >$3000 for a >40" TV, then you can look at the LCD or DLP RPTVs.
     
  12. John Doh

    John Doh Stunt Coordinator

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    Jay,

    The smallest DLP by Samsung is 43 inches (HLN437W). All of these DLP's are tabletop sets, which would require a hutch of some sort to sit it on. With that, the 46 version only ways around 80 pounds and is roughly 16 inches deep with an aesthetically pleasing black and silver finish, so the 43" will be slightly smaller. I am getting one of the new ones during late summer and can't wait! Another cool thing is that the top of the Tantus DLP's by Samsung (the 46 incher) has a platform for a center channel speaker to sit, which is a must for gaming in 5.1 Dolby Digital. Chekc'em out at your local Best Buy or Circuit City (just don't look for much detailed insight from the slaes clerks...they're usually worthless.). Later!
     
  13. Jay_Worth

    Jay_Worth Extra

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    OK, I was out shopping and I found what seems to be a great buy on a Toshiba 30'' widescreen HDTV. 720, 1080, the works. But it's not written in stone yet, I'm doing some research.

    Toshiba- 30hf83. I just tried to link to a site with info on the set, but the forum told me I couldn't until I've made 15 posts.

    They demonstrated it for me and played a DVD, and it looked sharp, gorgeous. Too bad they didn't have an Xbox hooked up there. It's on display for 1699, but they'll chop 200 off for me because I'm paying cash. 1499... I'll save some bucks here... and some space in my room.

    I explained my plight, and they sympathized with me and said this would be a good buy, after I take back the RPTV. What do you think? Anybody know anything about this TV? Any known issues? Do you think I'll be good to go with it?

    I forgot to mention that I am CANADIAN... so of course, that 1499 might look horrific to you if you're American, but they don't come much cheaper where I'm from. -_-

    I made another stop at a different dealer, and they recommended the Sony Trinitron KV30HS510, or the newer model, KV30HS420. Anybody know anything about this one? The specs are the same as the Toshiba. 30 inch, 16:9, 720, 1080, etc. On display for 1999, I'd get it for 1800. Looked good, but then I found the Toshiba on the next stop. It's down to those two... at this point.

    Are they both truly 720p? Both of them ACCEPT 720 progressive scan, so I assume it does. Though I'm not entirely familiar with the lingo.

    Thanks for all posts, all that info came in handy during the trek to Sound Afex Audio and Video.

    At one point, they brought me into dark room with a 60 inch plasma monster, 8000 dollars. Looked great, but... they tried to sell me it. They failed.
     
  14. John Doh

    John Doh Stunt Coordinator

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    The only thing that would ruin it for me is the size of the monitor. A 30" HDTV is probably a 16:9 screen which roughly equates to a 25" 4:3 TV. To me, thats way too small... but then again I'm one of the guys that still thinks size matters. :0
     
  15. Matthew Todd

    Matthew Todd Second Unit

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    I just looked both of these sets up on bestbuy's website. Both of these will accept pretty much any input signal, but they will convert everything before displaying it to 1080i.

    That may or may not be a problem for you. What is the model and maker of the 40" RPTV that you want to return? I'm guessing that it is doing something really similar (accept nearly any input, convert it for display to 1080i).

    If you could actually try out the Sony and Toshiba with the xbox and see if you have problems, that would be really helpful.

    Matt
     
  16. ChrisLazarko

    ChrisLazarko Supporting Actor

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    Well I have a Mitsubishi TV which isn't progressive but I do play XBOX, PS2, Gamecube, N64, SuperNES, my computer, you get the idea. Let me say once I got this TV properly calibrated it works like a charm. I never have a problem with the image or quality, although High Def. would be great.

    Maybe look at a Mitsubishi TV... bring it to a local Audio/Video shop with perhaps your Xbox or something and ask to try it out for a little bit. Don't see why they would really care?
     
  17. Jay_Worth

    Jay_Worth Extra

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    ''I just looked both of these sets up on bestbuy's website. Both of these will accept pretty much any input signal, but they will convert everything before displaying it to 1080i.''

    What exactly does this mean? What does it do to the picture/res when it ''converts''?

    Let's say I play Freedom Fighters on it (one of a handful of true 720p Xbox games), what will happen?
     
  18. Jay_Worth

    Jay_Worth Extra

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    ''What is the model and maker of the 40" RPTV that you want to return?''

    LG, 40 inch 16:9 HDTV, RU-40NZ60
     
  19. My final 2 cents...

    - A 30" CRT seems too small unless you intend to sit right on top of it (but for games, maybe you do).

    - Any CRT-based display will risk burn-in due stationary game items (health bars, etc.)

    - LCDs have a bright computer-mesh look, but for games this looks better, IMHO.

    - DLPs tend to be darker and smoother, better for movies, IMHO.

    - LCOS isn't really here yet, so that's anyones guess.

    - Be *very* leary of any direct-view CRT that claims to display (not just accept) 720p. As far as I know, only the expensive Anaconda can display.

    - You've already eliminated rear-projection CRTs, so that's out.

    ============

    Have fun sorting this out, it could be worse.

    Alot of people want a muti-funtion display that does *everything* well.
     
  20. Matthew Todd

    Matthew Todd Second Unit

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    I don't have much experience playing games with any display, so I don't really know what it will look like, but here's what you might see: (hopefully someone more knowledgeable will chime in)

    Basically the TV has a native resolution of 1920x1080i. A 720p game is going to have a resolution of 1280x720p.

    There are some basic differences between the "i" and "p" (maybe you already know this stuff)

    1080i means that the TV draws 1080 horizontal lines to make the picture, but the "i" means that it draws all the odd lines first, and then all the even lines in between those.

    To convert 720p to 1080i the TV is going to have to take those 720 lines of image and chop them up to make 1080 lines. As you might guess this will result in some artifacts.

    I don't really know what kind of artifacts people see when you do this kind of conversion though. Hopefully someone can help out there.

    From your first post, it almost sounds like if you could run at a higher refresh rate, that the problem would be helped, although your old 20" TV would be operating at that same 60Hz.

    If you want to do any different refresh rates you really need either a CRT front projector (maybe digital front projectors can do this too?) or a computer monitor.

    I think the best thing you could do is to take some games down to the store and see if they will let you try out the sets yourself.

    Matt
     

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