It's Official: HD DVD and Blu-ray Can Limit High Resolution To HDMI Only (1 Viewer)

[Aaron_Brez]

I'm sorry I wasn't clear, then.

I disagree with you on the nagging vs requiring question, but we can agree to disagree on that one, since it's not entirely important.

I've hacked it for other reasons besides the nag screen, since there's powerful stuff which can be done with a Tivo without violating anyone's rights (I can stream shows to a PC upstairs so both daughters can watch different shows at the same time, for example; Hollywood doesn't really mind this usage model-- and in fact is offering it as part of AACS on HD disks-- but still wishes I couldn't/wouldn't do it on my own because it proves I could fileserve the shows over the internet instead, if I were evil instead of just a harmless tech-nerd with loud children). As usual, Hollywood is worried about what I *could* do, and not what I actually do.

I am actually very sympathetic to the "remote deactivation by new software on disk" model, and have said so in this thread (though I think it puts me in the minority) because it leaves me in the driver seat and still enables me to enjoy old content if I someday decide that new restrictions and software are not worth my autonomy. I have the same choice when I run pre-Win2K-SP2 operating systems on my PC: I may be restricted on which new software I can run, but the old stuff is unaffected and still works as well as ever, and I'm not saddled with restrictions I find unappetizing.

I will accept that model; but the internet connection model, if adopted, removes my last controllable option.

 

[JackKay]

Aaron, can I turn in your "useless parasitic relations" for that Blu-ray Lord of the Rings disk?

 

[JackKay]

On second thought forget it. My Tosh only has component inputs.

 

[Aaron_Brez]

Once I've leveraged their stupidity to upgrade all my DVDs to the HD version, I'll send you names and addresses.

 

[Emil Stoica]

Did anyone else see this link?

http://www.watch.impress.co.jp/av/do...50914/aacs.htm

Putting it through translation, here are the important parts:

"Vis-a-vis this, how time limit measure that with to the equipment which is sold after a certain point in time it is good developing the equipment whose analog output is possible? With also the opinion which is said has emerged. Vis-a-vis this, opposes the home appliance manufacturer to the introduction of the flag which itself such as SONY does in the first place resolution restriction, Toshiba and Matsushita Electric Co..

As for this flag " the ICT " (the Image Constrain Token) with being something which is called, you say it is something which is introduced into the occasion where it decides operational established of the DTCP. ICT itself is not something which always restricts analog output. Actually whether or not it does restriction, it means to be left on contents vendor side. Actually, the ICT those which exist is not really utilized at the time of present BS digital / terrestrial digital broadcasting.

ICT introduction was thought many of the movie studio which assembles business with image property seek. But, at least Disney and 20 century fox seem that does not desire the introduction of the ICT.

So, it appears Blu-ray will be full res hd over component?

 

[Paul.S]

Emil:

WTF? LOL. Did you translate this from Japanese?

All I understand is that there's a picture of the Nakatomi Building at that page.

-p

 

[Emil Stoica]

Paul,

LOL, I did not do the translation. Used Googles Beta Japanese translator. It does not do the best job, but the point comes across. My favorite part I edited was it translated to "Twenty Century Foxes".

However, raises an interesting point. If 20th Century, Disney, Sony, Matsushita and even Tosihba do not want to down rez over component, wonder who does?

Guessing an answer can be derived by looking at the studios not mentioned.

 

[PeterTHX]

You're omitting the fact that (no matter how good it sounds) the iTunes AAC download is a lossy compressed copy of the original. It is not a perfect duplicate of the original, much like a JPG is to a RAW image. Burning it to CD and then reripping it with yet another lossy compression (that's even less efficient!) scheme like MP3 is hard on my ears. YOu're worried about downrezzing thru component???

 

[AaronMK]

Aaron_Brez,

You're right, the intellectual property and censorship issues were things I had overlooked.

I was not trying to imply that copy protection laws are not powerful. I just think that a lot of that power would not be as relevent if there were robust technological protection measures.

Let's consider the reverse situation: there are no copyright laws, but the technological protections are unbreakable (including a Macrovision to defend against camcorders). You would not find boolegs for sale at Best Buy, CostCo, Amazon.com (not even in the auction section), nor by the guy with a trenchcoat and a blacked-window van. They would be impossible to produce in the first place. People other than content owners would not be able to bring movies into editing software to create the "formatted to fit your morality" versions. (Wal-Mart doesn't currently sell them, but other companies do)

To a certian extent, I can see your point about being in the driver's seat with the "software on disc" deactivation. It seems more like driving off road in the fog, though. You will have to be careful not to use that disc with your equipment on its revocation list. Who knows if revocations and what discs they are on are going to be well publicized?

 

[Jesse Blacklow]

I don't know how I missed this, but according to Paul Sweeting over at Video Business, "HD DVD launch off for Q4, As Toshiba delays hardware production". At this point, it sounds like just another nail in the coffin.

I'm posting this in the other HD optical media threads as well.

 

[Jeff Savage]

Emil -

The article that you posted deals with AACS which is the base security layer for both HD-DVD and blu-ray. Blu-ray adds another layer of security on top of AACS.

If the AACS group does away with down rezzing HD content over the analog output then both HD-DVD and blu-ray will allow full resolution HD over the analog outputs.

Here are some other important points (taken from a translation found on AVS)


The AACS specs will not be finalized until the end of September which accounts for some of the delay in launching HD-DVD.

I find it interesting that FOX of all people is pushing for full rez analog outputs. Maybe they have heard us after all?

Laters,
Jeff

 

[Aaron_Brez]

Well, Peter Staddon used to post here. I would not be shocked if the loudest voice we have in our favor is Fox.

But I echo the sentiments: if Fox and Disney don't want downrezzed component, and the manufacturers don't want it, who does?

 

[Aaron_Brez]

Well, sure, but this is a very improbable world. I know of no mechanism by which real, unbreakable protections could exist without laws prohibiting their infringement, and I would suggest there will be no such thing until our eyes are digital instead of analog.

My assertion is that since the technological "protection" of their copyrights is futile at worst, and a stumbling block for dishonest folks at best, they should concentrate their money and efforts on elminating the behavior they don't like (internet filesharing, bootlegging), as opposed to all copyright protection disabling for all purposes, and that expecting a federal statute to protect them from copyright violators is a pipe dream.

 

[Paul.S]

Thx for the additional information/translation from AVS, Jeff.

I think you know this (and understand its significance), Aaron B., but unfortunately I think many others herein do not so it merits stating explicitly: there's a big difference between the News Corp. roles of Peter Staddon and Andy Setos.

-p

 

[Emil Stoica]

Jeff,

I agree, thanks for the better translation. The google one was no where near that good.

 

[Aaron_Brez]

Actually, Paul, you may be giving me too much credit.

Setos is "president of engineering" for the Fox Group, Staddon is "executive vice president of marketing" for Fox Home Entertainment. While to me "president" outranks "vice president", they're different organizations and without an org chart I'd have a hard time definitively stating who outranks whom.

 

[Paul.S]

Fox Group is the entertainment umbrella under which the studio falls.

Setos, as a division president, far outranks Staddon. And in the more specific context of the kinds of corporate decision-making we're talking about here about technical matters, Setos has more weight than Staddon's boss Mike Dunn.

Although I know you included a smiley emoticon when you first made your comments, saying that Fox may be an ally in this whole mess just because Staddon used to post here is silly. It also contributes to the IMO pretentious, presumptuous notion that has been rife in this thread, especially earlier: that if we bitch here, the studios will somehow be responsive.

In other words, there's a huge difference between, on the one hand, h.e. marketing execs participating in an online enthusiast forum chat to suss out what DVD titles collectors are most likely to buy and, on the other, a macro, industry-wide issue like what next gen disc format the studio is going to support and how heavily copy protection issues weigh in that decision.

Glen C. said it well in response to a post by DaViD B. in another thread while responding to David's comments about being a "proud Blu-ray supporter." He said he finds too much anti-consumer behavior going on (with regards to copy protection) to be proudly supporting either format. (http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htfo...90#post2785890)

To that I would add that many seem to be overestimating the degree to which consumer concerns are even prime movers in this whole industrial decision.

Especially given what Paul Sweeting has discussed in recent columns re what parties are arguing for "managed copy" copy protection (the IT members of the Blu-ray consortium moreso that the studios), I think kvetching at the studios--who Microsoft is reportedly wooing and placating and accommodating on Vista--might very well be misdirected.

If the "advisory" contemplated earlier in this thread is even still on the table, the person I'd most like to see it directed to is Gary Shapiro. Maybe I've just missed it, but why have we not heard from the Consumer Electronics Association--purportedly the lobbying ally of us consumer enthusiasts--about where they stand on the HDMI issue?

-p

P.S. - Speaking of Setos, check out his presentation (well, too bad the cameraman didn't pan left to his displays/slides) at IFA:

http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Article-14706.html

What the fug does he mean in his comment right at the end about "usage profiles"??

 

[Aaron_Brez]

Paul,

It wasn't clear in my post, but the fact that Fox commented disparagingly about downrezzing component outs was what prompted me to consider Fox an ally in this. I brought Peter up because he's from Fox and has been seen 'round these here parts from time to time.

I'm confused by this though...



Why would considering the studios responsible for demanding excessive copy protection schemes be misdirected? "Managed copy" is what Microsoft wants because they want to give the customer a way to put their HD movies on a product running a Microsoft operating system. It has nothing to do with set top box HD disk players, unless you broaden "set top box" to include home-theater PCs and Media Center PCs. If anything, the studios are against "managed copy" because it's weak and the hackers will probably smash it quite easily.

Awesome link, by the way. I will be reading this for awhile.

 

[Paul.S]

Thank Emil Stoica--he passed it on to me.

-p

 

[Dave Moritz]

Ooops to late since I hear media player ecryption was just recently hacked. I dont think I would place my copy protection with Microsoft . Microsoft does not have the best reputation for keeping things secure. Heck they could not even keep there .net servers from being hacked or secure. Thats why with all there supperior technology they are running there .net servers on Unix based OS's. The industry needs something alot better and alot more stable than Microsoft produces.