Is a sub this important? (1 Viewer)

[Jeffrey Forner]

Ah, but Mike, you make the deadly mistake of assuming that high prices automatcially equals quality.
I can understand why the display device should be the most expensive element in any home theater. If you want a big screen, that's the nature of the beast. However, in this day of direct-to-consumer Internet companies like Outlaw, SVS, Adire, and Home Theater Direct, I don't believe prices illustrate the quality of a product in terms of what you would get from traditional retailers. Wouldn't you agree.
Not that I'm saying your priorities are all screwed up of course. All the stuff you mentioned is exteremly important in the creation of any good home theater.
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-J.Fo
Live in the Minneapolis/St. Paul Area? Wanna meet local HTF members? Click Here!

 

[Vin]

Is there anyone out there that went through what I'm going through and has some advice for me?

My current sub, a Velodyne CT-120, is the 4th sub I've owned and it won't be the last. I felt that the HT experience was brought to a higher level every time I upgraded the sub. IMO, a quality sub can make what would otherwise be a mediocre sounding system, a great one!
Save yourself some time and some money and do it right the first time.....get the best sub you can afford!
Good luck and happy woofin!

Vin
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[Ron Stimpson]

I should probably clarify my break-down. Before folks start threads someplace asking if I'm off my rocker. I mean I didn't even MENTION Pieter's TV did I?
When costs are considered in HT, I always separate the video from the audio in budgetary terms, I should have mentioned this. Reason being, if it was ME, I'd spend as much on my display device as the entire audio chain, including subwoofer.
The recommendation get's harder when you consider the slow transition to HD, the dropping prices therein, the wide difference in prices etc.
So my recommendation above did NOT consider the video. Still, if someone is targeting upgrades strategically (as opposed to a broad front approach where you might incrementally improve EACH item in your system), I would probably get the audio in order first (with a killer subwoofer naturally) and then start saving my $ for the killer display to go with it. I'm a big fan of used front projectors in that regard.
I have heard $150 main speakers(that's for one ... backed by that great sub) that would give $1,000 speakers a run for the money. I have never heard a $150 sub that could approach that of something like a high-value $1,000 subwoofer from some companies I know of. There are folks for whom "adequate" subwoofers are well, adequate. More power to them. In my limited experience, no single component can make or break the HT experience like a superlative subwoofer (except for the aforementioned high quality display device).
Building your own, is ALWAYS and option and I heartily agree that folks on a very tight budget go that route. I did it a few years ago myself.
Cut corners in ANY area of a HT project and I'll put my money on the fact that a whimpy sub will be the "weakest link" in most any enthusiast's evalutation.
Perhaps I need to "tweak" the system's I set up in a more nuanced way with wood-blocks, elevated cables, the power conditioner du jour, etc. but after working in scores of HT's with stocked with gear from every place including K-Mart on the one extreme and McIntosh/Theta and REL on the other hand, I don't think so.
Of course that's only my opinion, I could be wrong.
Ron

 

[Mike Knapp]

Perhaps I need to "tweak" the system's I set up in a more nuanced way with wood-blocks, elevated cables, the power conditioner du jour, etc

I certainly wouldnt recommend doing any of those things until one had their entire system up to snuff....including the subwoofer.
You know I love my sub(s), I just dont put them as high on the "priority" list as many others. My system is used for music as well and a sub is not as important in music as it is in home theater. So in my opinion (based on my useage only) the sub falls down on the list accordingly. For others (especially those that use their systems mostly for movies) this obviously would not be the case.
Mike

 

[Reginald Trent]

Mike is half right with his initial post. His equipment priority list seems geared for someone starting from scratch or someone with deep pockets to costantly upgrade in order to adhere to Mike's priority list pecking order.
However, in the real world most of us start out with entry-mid level equipment. Why can't the sub be the most expense component until someone decides to upgrade the video display, reciever or etc, etc.? What if I have a 5 year old TV that I am satisfied with that cost me 500 at the time. Does that mean I can't spend more than 500.00 on a new reciever or another component?
I understand what Mike was trying to do, given ideal conditions. However, most of us have to build our systems over time with whatever resources and knowledge we have at that time.
In other words get the SVS or you'll feel ilke the guy in the Fram oil filter commercial, you can pay now or pay in otherways later.

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[Mike Knapp]

Oh my! Reginald and I actually agree on something....the sky is falling!
Really, that is what I was trying to say. Sorry if I was misunderstood. In the original post I think the 800 would be better served toward a new display. Sell the old TV and sub and upgrade to a new sub as well. Then you could have the best of both worlds!
Mike

 

[Philip Hamm]

Just to put things into perspective here I want to point out that Ron S is a fanatical bass-head. His company does some amazing work in that regard. I've heard his system (long ago) and let me tell you he is totally out of his mind when it comes to bass. It's a passion for him. That's why he started SVS subs!
I've had an SVS in my house, not really perfect calibrated, but in the same location as my DefTech and set up with VE and the SPL meter. Yes, it was noticably better than my sub, but no, I don't want one. My priorities are not there. Just another opinion.
Mr. Jenkins that comment about the "pronto club" was so true I was laughing out loud!
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Philip Hamm
AIM: PhilBiker

 

[Stephen Smith]

This is my own personal opinion. "DO NOT SKIMP ON YOUR SUBWOOFER". I have been in this hobby for 20 years now, and if there is one thing I have learned the hard way, it is to get the best sub you can afford. Heck save up a little while if you have to. It will payoff in the long run. Of course all of the other components are important also, but to me you need a quality sub to really enjoy hometheater.
Do yourself a favor and save up the money needed for the SVS
subwoofer. You will be glad you did.
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[Reginald Trent]

Mike, you are the master of ambiguity. Do you have aspirations of becoming a politician? Surely there is an office you can run for somewhere in Florida.

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[Mike Knapp]

Reginald,
Not ambiguous at all.
I was very clear in my reasoning. In the original post the television was not only mentioned but a price for it was given. Looking at that I recommended that the subwoofer was NOT the weakest link in his chain and so 800 dollars would not be best spent there.
I gave my reasons and documented them.
If he wants a small TV and a large sub, that is his perogitive to be sure. That would not be my choice and I stated as much. I even qualified it with the "my opinion" disclaimer.
If someone already has a system in place (like Pieter) then upgrading can take any route and order the person desires. He posed the question...
quote: "Should the largest investment in my hobby be a subwoofer?"[/quote]
I answered....NO, and offered the reasoning for my choice.
Ambiguous? I dont think so.
Sheeze! Tough crowd!
Mike
[Edited last by Mike Knapp on August 02, 2001 at 05:11 AM]

 

[Charles J P]

I find myself on the new side of this fence. This is the first time since I have joined this hobby that I would have agreed with Mike K. on this subject. I have $800 dropped into my TV because I wanted a good display, but unfortunately I was restricted by space. Now, with speakers I love, and even a mediocre DVD player, I find that I am feeling the only thing that will ever make me approach accuracy to the term "Home Theater" is a bigger display. And I am talking jumping all the way to FP here. I just think there is something about it that adds to the feeling of the movie when its large. If any of you tell my fiance, I'll kill you. But, I think I would honestly sell all my speakers, and my TV if I thought it would get me a Take 5.2 package and a decent used projector and screen (of course I still dont have room for that).
Now, to confuse matters, I mentioned that this is a new opinion for me, and I would have thought otherwis up until recently. What has changed my mind? Well, I think I have reached a point of good enough audio that I have started to take it for granted, and forget how bad it could be/used to be. What has caused this taking-the-audio-for-granted? Probably largley due to my SVS 16-46CS
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[BruceD]

Mike said,
"My system is used for music as well and a sub is not as important in music as it is in home theater."
I thought the same until I implemented a sub with my mains for 2-channel listening. My mains are fully capable of low bass (-3dB at 31Hz, Dynaudio Contour 2.8 towers.
I found that careful tuning with an active crossover like the Marchand XM9L at 60Hz (one octave above the -3dB point, with symmetrical -24dB slopes) with L&R summed to a M&K MX700 sub has really added to the listening experience.
How you might ask? I find that instruments like the electronic bass guitar, standup bass, kettle drums, and bass drums deliver cleaner and more realistic performances from PCM sources.
BruceD

 

[Reginald Trent]

Mike, I never said THIS POST was ambiguous. I said you are the master of ambiguity, for which I stand by my statement. It was a failed attempt at humor Mike, I guess I failed. Next time I'll leave the humor for Chris Rock and that guy who wrote the Mustard Thread sometime ago.

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[Mike Knapp]

Bruce,
Notice I said "not AS important"...as opposed to "not important"
Reginald....no offense taken my man. I am considering a run for city council!
Must everything I say cause such controversy? We all know that there are more important things in a home theater than the subwoofer. All I was saying was that the money should be directed to those areas first.
Sometimes I think you guys just like to argue with me for the hell of it.
Mike
[Edited last by Mike Knapp on August 02, 2001 at 11:57 AM]

 

[John Morton]

My HT history:
I had an infinity BU-80 with minuette satellites. I paid $1100 for the 5.1 speaker solution and "thought" it sounded great. I then upgraded to a Sony db930 receiver and what a difference. The instrument placement and clarity was amazing. A year, later I bought an Infinity HPS-500 sub (500 mfg "advertised" watts for $600 = RMS is a whole different ball game) and realized that the "thuds" and "ba-ba-ba-booms" I once heard were roughly 7% of what I "should have been hearing" all along. I actually cried that night!! The increased clarity for music and movies was astonishing and IMO, equal to what I had experienced with the receiver upgrade!! I next upgraded from the minuettes to Infinity RS-5s for front / rear, and a CC-3 center, and GOOD wires ($1700 for all 5). Another incredible difference, but not quite as close to what the sub or receiver alone had added. Last Christmas I gave my HPS-500 to my dad (aren't I a great son?) and ebay purchased the Infinity HPS-1000 sub (OK, maybe I'm just selfish) I wanted to begin with, but couldn't afford (I paid $450, but it originally retailed for like $1300). Now that I'm "slightly" seasoned, I've gone from "terrible (but still a very good starter set)" to "decent" to "oh my god, everybody RUN, there's a REAL dinosaur in my living room".
My dad fought long and hard and claimed that he didn't need a sub. He said "it won't make that big of a difference and it's too expensive". Now he says "I was wrong, you were right, and NO, you can't borrow my sub to try something new and while we're on that subject, keep your eyes open for another HPS-1000 for me!!". :-O
If you look at it from a "technological" standpoint: video is changing quickly right now. Receivers, not quite as fast, followed by speakers.
Depending on your level of commitment and cashflow, you'll surely get a new display / DVD combo. You MAY get a new receiver unless you already have DD/DTS and aren't interested in SACD/DA/6.1/7.1/9.1/whatever else they come up with. You MAY get better speakers.
BUT, a really "great" sub will be with you for a long, long time.
Just my experience, and my 4 cents worth (2 for me, 2 for dad)!!

 

[John Morton]

OH, by the way, Mike K, I have nothing but respect for your opinions and would never argue with you!!!!