In CONGRESS, July 4, 1776 (1 Viewer)

[Cees Alons]

Nah, my family sold the patent to these guys. They live in Orange, Orange County, which is particularly fitting.


Cees

 

[Yee-Ming]

Then again, didn't Spain actually restore its monarchy after Franco finally died in the 1970s? Which would be even odder considering all the European monarchies that were deposed in teh aftermath of either World War 1 or 2.

And never mind visiting the Netherlands seven or eight times, I was born there...

 

[Cees Alons]

(Just born and passing by, or been here long enough to speak the language?)



And, meanwhile, don't mind these two Dutchmen having a casual conversation, so back to the original topic:




Know what this is?


Cees

 

[Mike Frezon]

From the NY Metropolitan Museum of Art:

 

[Mike Frezon]

No. But it looks like he's got a head cold.

 

[Dennis Nicholls]

Is that a spare face for the Statue of Liberty?

 

[Dennis Nicholls]

IIRC Juan Carlos served as a rallying point for his countrymen after the death of Franco.

The US is unique in that, rather than having a figurehead monarch to serve as a national rallying point, it has a document to which we swear loyalty.



What often is forgotten is that the Constitution is actually the second effort. We lived under the Articles of Confederation for a decade, and that experience caused us to draft a new Constitution in order to form a more perfect union.

Perceived flaws in the Articles of Confederation included the lack of an executive and judicial branch. Under the Articles the US had a parliamentary form of government. Having fought a war against rotten King George and his rotten taxes, we set up a government with no executive and no means of collecting taxes. After a few years of this we realized that it was darned hard to run a country that way.



Where's Francois Caron when we need him?

 

[Cees Alons]

A copy, yes. A full-size copper replica of the original (and not turned green). It's located in a corridor of the statue's pedestal. Used to be part of an exhibit, but I doubt if it's accessible nowadays.


Cees

 

[Mike Frezon]

Besides Cees' father-in-law and Captain Kangaroo (who I'm assuming are separate gentlemen), it strikes me that Mr. Ed also made extensive use of Dutch doors :

 

[Dave Hahn]

 

[Cees Alons]

But when reading Churchill, you must always take into account that he was a little little bit on the chauvinist side.

It still points out Paine's influence, and deservedly so, but Churchill LOVED emphasizing something like an alleged importance of an Englishman over (blech) 'intellectuals like Adams'.

Personally, I sometimes think John Adams may still be slightly underrated, while Jefferson once called him the "Colossus of Independence".
(Perhaps he's only underrated in the history as told on this side of the Atlantic. I cannot really judge how he's seen in the US today. My apologies if I'm wrong.)


Cees

 

[Mike Frezon]

Cees: David McCullough's wonderful biography on Adams a few years ago did quite a lot to boost Adams' standing in the minds of those who did not know much about his role in the founding of the U.S.

 

[Dennis Nicholls]

 

[Yee-Ming]

Born and raised for six years, then crossed the Channel and sadly forgot the lingo. So it's probably a misnomer to call me a Dutchman, although I used to be referred to as a Dutch baby.

But when it comes to football, "Hup Holland!" Not that there's very much to cheer about these days, especially after Bergkamp retired.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Common Sense is discussed in McCullough's book on Adams.

In fact, when passing through New York one time, Adams purchased two copies of the pamphlet and sent one home to Abigail.

While it certainly roused the populace to consider independence from the "royal brute" King George, McCullough makes the case that Adams was quite affected by it as friends came to him saying the case for independence was never more strong or clear.

But the author also says Adams had several major problems with Common Sense: that it declared monarchy to be a "sin of the Jews", predicted a swift war with Britain, and made a call for a unicameral legislature.

Walter Isaacson's biography of Ben Franklin directly links the powerful response of the public to Common Sense with the motion for independence made before Congress by Virginia's Richard Henry Lee: "These United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent states. Isaacson wrote that Common Sense "paved the way for the Declaration of Independence."

 

[Cees Alons]

That's a good thing you did, reminding me of McCullough's books. I planned to read several of them some time ago, then somehow forgot it.

Just looked it up at Amazon, and I will order several of them.

(If you happen to perform a search for McCullough on Amazon, don't make the mistake of inadvertently ordering Female Masturbation by Zarina, Sabrina Love-Cox, Nicole Moore, Saki, & Shanna McCullough Keisha and Dr. Perry (DVD - Aug 1, 2006).
It may be related to the very concept of Independence, but, in the first place, that's not a book and in the second place that's Shanna McCullough, not David.
Also, I distrust the names of the authors Sabrina Love-Cox and Nicole Moore.)


Cees

 

[Yee-Ming]

Not really, I think it was more a twist on the brand of milk "Dutch Lady", which was quite popular here.

Sorry to everyone else for derailing this thread on matters Dutch. Back to your regularly scheduled programming...

 

[Mike Frezon]

John Adams and 1776 are both wonderful, Cees...as is his biography on Truman. McCullough has a terrific way of writing and presenting the material that makes it very accessible and the farthest thing from dry and boring. Once you've read the books you really feel like you've got a sense of knowing and understanding the people/events you've just read about.

The Isaacson bio on Franklin is terrific, too.

Anyone recommend a good Jefferson bio?

 

[Cees Alons]

Mike,

No recommendation for a Jefferson biography, but I couldn't resist ordering McCullough's 40 minutes speech on CD The Course of Human Events, which he held as the 2003 Jefferson Lecture. The review also mentioned that one of his favorite points (like yours and Dennis's above) to stress is the Founding Father's love of books and literature.

Looks interesting.


Cees



PS: Not a recommendation either, because I didn't read it, but here's an intriguing looking book about Thomas Jefferson, by Joseph J. Ellis, more aimed at his character than his Icon Status. It seems to be even rather critical and compares TJ to JA - with an outcome mainly in favour of the latter.
Anybody read this? Mike? Do you think I might like it too?
C.

 

[Mike Frezon]

Cees:

1.) Books were so highly prized during those times. Yet, today, they are taken for granted and ignored by such a large percentage of the public.

Franklin's creation of a public library system was so innovative and practical (and simple). And yet, unfortunately, so many public libraries fight to stay open and/or have become a refuge for the homeless.

Of one thing I am sure, I don't read enough books. I read more than my fair share of newspapers and magazines. But I need to read more books.

2.) Will look into the Ellis book. I'm sure the amazon reviews will also yield further suggestions. Thanks!