How does one define enouph? (1 Viewer)

[Mark Seaton]

In the end, it's all about the goosebumps...
For me this lies in the crescendo from barely there to levels which scare you from the room(not drive you from it). I am happy when *I* limit the system, and I don't have to worry that I am pushing things too far. Unfortunately the difference from a nice system and such capability can be a monumental leap. That said, there is a wonderful sense of ease and pride when you know you can hand the remote to any friend and know that you have nothing to worry about with anything they can throw at your system other than your own hearing.

 

[steve nn]

That "rings a bell" and "sits good" Mark.

 

[Brian Bunge]

Steve,

It's the Crown K2 that I mentioned above. It's rated at 2500W bridged into a 4 ohm load, or 800W per channel at 4 ohms.

Michael,

The enclosures are heavily stuffed and I figure (along with some help from Mike Dzurko) that I've got a Qtc around .7. The Titan II has a Qtc ~ .6. Plus it's got some fancy EQ down low to achieve flat response in such a small enclosure, which is around 2ft^3. A friend of mine built the Titan II when you could buy it in kit form and I can definitely tell that it is smoother for music. It doesn't have quite the impact as mine do for HT though. But then again, the only time I heard it I knew it could use some help because he hadn't calibrated his system at all. I set all his speakers to small and tuned by ear as best I could without my SPL meter. When he moves into his new house I'll do a full setup and try to get a better idea of the overall sound.

 

[Mifr44]

Brian,

I would agree, the Titan II is wonderful in an audio system. If you recall, we own 2 Titan IIs for our HT system, one to "fill in" the mains, the other for the subout (LFE plus "small" center). It is just that the output for HT is less than what we had with the M&K MX-125mkII. But both my wife and I like the Titan IIs for music, so they are staying.

I have been considering a dedicated subwoofer for the subout connection, to handle any present LFE (.1) channel and the "small" bass from the center speaker. At the same time I could use both Titan IIs with the mains, either in a stereo sub configuration or doubled up on a summed mono signal from the mains. Our desire for this stems from wanting to have 2 channel stereo in analog bypass mode, plus having the Titan IIs active with the mains for movies where a lot of the music soundtracks originate.

So, I have started looking for a 3rd subwoofer to be used primarily for movies. It needs to be a "box"-style sub (sorry, no big cylinders), black, and no more than $1500 US.

Michael

 

[Brian Bunge]

Michael,
If you'd like something custom-built, drop me an email at [email protected]. Let me know of any size limitations you may have.

 

[Mifr44]

Brian,

I will definitely consider that option. I just have to figure out how much sub I need. Thanks.

Michael

 

[Brian Bunge]

I'll be more than happy to discuss that with you offline if you'd like.

 

[Wayne Ernst]

quote:
When your wife says, turn the system off or she is leaving you!
Some guys might consider that just the right amount

How would a judge rule in a divorce case of this nature? Filing for divorce because of too much bass? I'm sure that would be a first for most judges.

 

[steve nn]

It really sounds like we have many of the same WAF experiences. When I decided to give "The Mighty Little DLS" sub a run against the Sony it made my situation worse. I found a new location along a back long wall that will accept a third sub without messing up my two stacked Velo's up in the right front. So now I would like to integrate another major sub into the blend and use the DLS for other purposes on its own when called for. Brian I to will be sure to send you a mail when I am ready and give you a chance. I and my wife have a agreement on the first of March. As you know I just blew it but not big-time so it is still on.

 

[Edward J M]

"Enough" would be "reference" bass with the speaks set to small - i.e., 121 dB bass peaks. Since I'm hitting 114 dB peaks at the couch now, a second SVS 20-39PC+ in the same location should just about get me there.
Hmmmm....I KNOW I had $850 scratching around here somewhere......oh yeah I remember - skip the mortgage payment this month!
Ed

 

[Guy Usher]

Enough is:
Who remembers this??
When you Smell Shit and hear Glass break
Now thats enough. . .

 

[Mike Poindexter]

"Enough" would be "reference" bass with the speaks set to small - i.e., 121 dB bass peaks. Since I'm hitting 114 dB peaks at the couch now, a second SVS 20-39PC+ in the same location should just about get me there.

Doubling the output will result in a 3db gain. You will need 5 times the subs to gain 7db. A second sub will put you at 117.

I don't know about everyone else, but when I have a peak hit 120db, it is way too loud for me. I will listen to Eminem totally cranked, but at 120 peak is just too much to endure for an entire movie.

If you want even more bass than you can imagine without having to get more and more subs, look at tactile transducers like the Buttkickers or motion simulators like the D-Box Odyssee. I have phenomenal bass and still, it doesn't hold a candle to the Odyssee in terms of making you "smell shit."

 

[Brian Bunge]

Mike,

You're correct, but adding a second, corner loaded sub next to the first one should get you a 3-6dB gain.

 

[steve nn]

My identical second corner stacked sub gives me a +6db bump and my third sub placed along the back long-wall gives me another +2 to +3 db bump. I have peaks of 104 to 111 at -15 to -22 and -28>"LOTR" and that seems to be some pretty hard hitting bass to me. 24x12 with 10ft ceilings and two entrances with two open picture openings-4x3 each. Each sub calibrated +2db individually. A little more I guess is in order even though my subs are just idling along.

 

[Edward J M]

Adding a second identically-calibrated, co-located, corner-loaded sub nearly always yields a 6 dB increase in SPL.

Of course, the objective is to add 6 dB of headroom to each sub, not to add 6 dB of bass volume to the existing set-up. After adding a second co-located sub, the system must be recalibrated. The two co-located subs should sound identical to one sub if the system was properly recalibrated. The only difference is that the system is now capable of playing 6 dB louder than it can with just one sub.

My original statement was a bit tongue in cheek, Mike - I really have no desire to increase my overall listening level another 6 dB. At roughly 6 dB under "reference", I'm still (barely) within the safe limits of my sub on hot DVDs like AOTC and LOTR, and my overall volume level is quite loud enough for my tastes.

If I really wanted to listen at reference level, I would definitely need a second co-located sub, because that is without question the limiting factor in my set-up. My other speakers and receiver can easily deliver another 6 dB of volume without even coming close to clipping or maxing out. But grabbing another 6 dB of bass from my single sub is simply out of the question.

Ed

 

[steve nn]

A limiting factor with my setup is that even though I run three> the 112-114 db is max at reference to. This is the limit my subs can put out in my room. If I were to run them hotter it would have no affect. If I could run them hotter I would not do so anyway. At lower listening levels--yes I can put more gain to the subs and I will realize more db's. I like a +6 to 10 db sub calibration for HT so running three enables me to just have them coast at -15 to -30. Thinking about it I think I would like about 115db at -15, each sub calibrated +2db on the flyby scene.

Edward I understand what you are saying and that led me to the Question--How does one define enough?

 

[Edward J M]

Steve, I'm not sure exactly what you were saying above.

If the best your subs can do (before bottoming or displaying other signs of distress) is 112-114 dB in your room at the key listening positions, then you are not at "reference" level playback.

Reference playback is 105 dB peaks from any surround channel and 115 dB peaks from the LFE channel - measured at the key listening positions. If you set your speaks to small and ask the sub to handle that bass also, this becomes 121 dB peaks from the LFE channel.

This assumes (and this is a very big assumption) that your system is properly calibrated to a known reference level master volume setting with a decent SPL meter an Avia or VE calibration DVD. When I say properly calibrated, this means the LFE channel is calibrated to the SAME volume as each of the other surround channels.

If you are calibrating your subs "hot" - all bets are off for your hopes of hitting true reference levels on playback. You say you are running your subs 10 dB "hot" for HT. If that is the case, and your speaks are set to small, you would in essence be asking your surround channels to deliver 105 dB peaks, and your LFE channel to deliver 131 dB bass peaks at your reference master volume setting.

Many (most) enthusiasts find true reference level playback too loud, and accordingly listen at 10 dB below reference. This makes it easier to tolerate the surround channels, and also allows the LFE channel to be safely run a little on the "hot" side - a very popular and common practice.

Ed

 

[Paul Stiles]

Enough is that amount which, if significantly added to or subtracted from, makes one say "too much" or "too little" respectively.

Paul

 

[steve nn]

Sorry Edward,- I think I should give it another try. I calibrate each sub individually +2db one at a time. When I am finished calibrating one at a time, I power them all up and that gives me my +10calibration. I get the +6db bump from the stack in the corner and the +2db bump from the third sub along the back long wall and the +2 calibration I actually calibrate to at the beginning individually. I have speakers set to small and I use the Radio Shack digital meter "C-slow" to calibrate. I think the meter reads a couple-three db's low for the LFE. I have not factored that in though. I use the THX optimizer on Star Wars I for my tones. Someone on the Forum a while back found 80 to be reference on this. I have tried others and have found some of them to be 75 and others to be 80. I think I have found some to be 85 to. I do plan on changing this practice very soon. Yes I am embarrassed. I know it is not optimal. I do not watch movies at reference. -15 is about as loud as I ever go. What I was trying to state earlier is that when I have tested certain scenes at reference> 114 is about as much as my two ct-cht velo's will do. They sound fine but they do have limiters in them so putting more gain to them is like 8 to 1 compression. That is how I herd Tom or Ron from SVS explain it. What it boils down to is I can get 110db peaks easily at -15 and 115db peaks at -0 and that is it. My HT is in our living-room which is opened to the dining-room. We have two entrances and two 3x4 openings on the front HT wall. I loose efficiency from this. I have put just one 1/2 sheet of plywood over the bottom half of the entrance closest to my stack for testing purposes and noticed a +2db gain-bump from doing so.>WAF will not alow. The entrance I speak of is just one foot away from the Velo's. There is a open 3x4 opening in the wall right above the Velo's to . I could put the Big Screen in the family-room along with the system minus the subs and I would have plenty of bass with the subs running on the other side of the house in the living-room:frowning: . You state I should be at 121db at -0 with speakers set to small if I understand you correctly. No I am not there. I can't think of any numbers I have seen from others though that were that high? I am sure there are though. Looks like a good mark to shoot for though.

 

[Edward J M]

Aha! Now I understand. The Velo's have dynamic limiters. That is why you can't get over 115 dB peaks, even at 0 on your master volume setting.

Assuming a linear curve on your master volume setting, if you are getting 110 dB peaks at -15, you should in theory be getting 125 dB peaks at 0.

You are correct - the THX optimizer is disc specific only (from what I've read here), and is less than ideal for system calibration, but it's a whole sight better than nothing. The new Digital VE calibration DVD is only $18 on-line. It would be a good investment for you.

You are again correct - the Rat Shack reads around 2-3 dB low on the LFE test tone. If you have not factored this in, you are running even hotter than you think.

As I stated in earlier posts, I honestly don't think true reference level playback is necessarily a good idea or a reasonable goal to shoot for. It's too loud for comfort on the surround channels, and too expensive to achieve on the LFE channel. I'd need two corner loaded 20-39PC+ in my 1700 ft3 room to hit around 120 dB on playback, and that's about $1700 worth of sub.

Regardless, this all amounts to bench racing - your system does what it does in real life, in your room, with your set-up. There's nothing wrong with that and the bottom line is not keeping up with the Jones', but putting a smile on your face and enjoying your HT system.

Ed