High Resolution Audio Comparison (1 Viewer)

[Lee Scoggins]

Has anyone read the comparison published by Stereophile Guide to Home Theater written by Mike Fremer?
It seems very balanced to me and there is much discussion on DVD Audio.
Check it out!

 

[Lee Scoggins]

http://www.airshowmastering.com/sacdimg/SACD.pdf
Check out the above link for an excellent artists and producers overview of Super Audio with a couple of paragraphs on DVDA as well.
This is very well done IMHO with many good links.
Enjoy!

 

[KeithH]

Lee, I will have to check out Fremer's article. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I don't read Stereophile Guide to Home Theater very often, but I'll check it out this weekend. Thanks again.

 

[Terry St]

It's just like with audio components -- more circuitry is bad.

I know this particular quote is out of context, but it is representative of the chief argument for SACD that has come forth in this thread. Namely, the contention that SACD is better because it has fewer components in the signal path.

Do these components qualify as circuitry though? Once the signal passes through the ADC one can argue that it is in the digital domain. You can do whatever you want to a digital signal before pressing it to a disc so long as you can reverse it when playing the disc. If one were to believe that this is not the case then one should direct their attention to the encryption both SACD and DVD-A use. It really messes around with those bits!

Digital processing can degrade the signal, or it can be transparant. It depends solely on the algorithm. You cannot use analogue arguments such as "every circuit in the path degrades quality" here because they do not have any basis in truth with regards to digital processing.

However, we can take issue with the algorithms being used. Bigtime. Instead of pointing to diagrams with two fewer boxes on them and saying "simpler is better" I suggest we direct our attention to the algorithms these extra pieces represent. Are the decimators, interpolators, and modulators in the PCM stream based on transparant algorithms? That is the real question here.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Are the decimators, interpolators, and modulators in the PCM stream based on transparant algorithms? That is the real question here.

I almost have to laugh at this since I run a company whose theme is "transparency" and this is also a hot button for me. I am no DSD expert but there is industry recognition in pro audio that DSD is very refined and transparent in its overall design and implementation.

Thanks for the feedback Terry.

 

[Terry St]

I am no DSD expert but there is industry recognition in pro audio that DSD is very refined and transparent in its overall design and implementation.

Sorry. I should have avoided the use of such a popular buzz word. What I meant is, can you decimate a delta sigma stream, store it, interpolate and modulate it, and get a stream back that is either identical or close enough to the origional that the differences are not audible? What goes in one side comes out the other like light through a window. This is what I meant by transparancy. I need to find representations of the actual circuits or algorithms being used here and take some time to examine them. Sadly, I am better at assigning myself homework than I am at doing it.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

What I meant is, can you decimate a delta sigma stream, store it, interpolate and modulate it, and get a stream back that is either identical or close enough to the origional that the differences are not audible? What goes in one side comes out the other like light through a window. This is what I meant by transparancy. I need to find representations of the actual circuits or algorithms being used here and take some time to examine them. Sadly, I am better at assigning myself homework than I am at doing it.

Actually I think we could have very deep intellectual discussions of an engineering nature but the best thing is to record in DSD and playback after a recording session (or even better in my case after each track) and listen to how well it replicated the sound.
In my professional opinion, based on current best state technology, the DSD recreation of the sonic event is more natural and accurate than the PCM recreation, even at 24/96 or 24/192.
At the end of the day, I just want each to judge the sonic qualities for themselves. I would prefer DSD but any high rez is better than no high rez at all.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

An interesting article on Stones SACD releases:
http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/sh...&threadid=8892
Enjoy!
Note the importance of being able to carry a CD layer to the project, which DVDA still lacks. This could prove a big competitive advantage for SACD.

 

[Ted Lee]

hey all -

i'm just flipping through my dec sght mag. there's an 8 page article on sacd vs. dvd-a.

haven't read it all yet, but it looks pretty in-depth.

just an fyi...

ted

 

[Rich Malloy]

It's a decent article, but I'm sure that pro-DVD-A folks will see it as biased in favor of SACD, while pro-SACD folks will take the converse view.* I thought it was balanced and largely accurate, though I was surprised to read that SACD initially was developed by Sony primarily as a means of archiving their catalog, and secondarily providing hi-res releases for a niche audiophile market.
*Though balanced on the whole, IMO, I don't recall the author discussing any SACD media whatsoever, while a few DVD-A titles received "mini-reviews". Since I'm starved for good SACD reviews, I felt gypped!

 

[Ted Lee]

hmm...

as i'm reading this article i'm finding that i have questions or thoughts. i thought about starting a new thread, but hopefully lee (and others) won't mind?

do i have this generally right?
1. sacd = dsd = sampling one bit at a time
2. dvd-a = pcm = sampling 16 bits at a time

i asked in a different thread if my dvd player would play dvd-a. the answer was "no". but the article says dvd-a also includes either dd or dts tracks. so that would tell me my dvd player can play dvd-a.

i guess i should start thinking of sacd as only "hi-resolution" and not necessarily multi-channel or hybrid?

do all dvd-a's have this watermarking protection? what are your thoughts about this? seems like a bad idea to me?

thx,

ted

btw rich - the article does recommend a couple of classical sacd titles, but you're right. more ground was definitely given to dvd-a.

 

[Rich Malloy]

Ted, your DVD player certainly can play the DD/DTS tracks on a DVD-A disc, but as you correctly note, you're losing out on (IMO) the key characteristic of the format: high resolution sound!

I enjoy my multi-ch SACDs very much, though I occasionally prefer the 2-ch mix. But it's the increased depth and space and the natural timbres and sense of ease that hooked me, not the multichannel capabilities of the format. Multi-ch, for me, is like icing, but high-resolution sound is the cake!

(In other words, given a choice between a surround format and a high-resolution format, I'll take high-resolution any day of the week. But, fortunately, I don't have to choose!)

 

[Ted Lee]

yeah, i think i would agree with you rich.
multi-channel seems cool, but i'd definitely prefer a more accurate and detailed rendition on only two speakers.
this has been a good read for me...it's helped me to have a paradyme shift about hi-res music.
hmmm....i sure could use one of those combi-players right about now. aarggh!

 

[Rich Malloy]

I certainly don't want to short-change multi-ch, because I've had my ears opened on several occasions recently. And likely not the titles you might think. For example, I much prefer the multi-ch mix of Brubeck's classic "Time Out" (an "ambience" mix), however I prefer the 2-ch mix of Diana Krall's recent recording "When I Look in Your Eyes". The latter strikes me as similar to the "pyramid mix" discussed (and negatively reviewed) in the Tigerlilly review on Hi-Fi Review: http://www.highfidelityreview.com/re...umber=19230301
While I don't like this latter approach, I think multi-ch has a very great deal to offer. But it's not the coolest part of the new high-res formats. Rather, it's the second coolest part!

 

[Ted Lee]

no worries there rich. to quote a friend of mine, "i'm pickin' up what you're throwin' down."
i was just viewing these titles for the multi-channel benefits only. i wasn't even considering the whole "hi-res" aspect. :b

 

[Lee Scoggins]

For example, I much prefer the multi-ch mix of Brubeck's classic "Time Out" (an "ambience" mix), however I prefer the 2-ch mix of Diana Krall's recent recording "When I Look in Your Eyes".

I think some people lose sight of the fact that a really well done two channel recording seems natural and three dimensional in a surround sort of way. The music can be enveloping to the user.
A lot depends on the recording engineer and his quality of recording.

 

[mike_decock]

I think some people lose sight of the fact that a really well done two channel recording seems natural and three dimensional in a surround sort of way.

I totally agree. Sometimes my system gives me chills because I'll have dogs barking behind me or sounds that seem like they come from outside the room. I could never have achieved the same overall sound quality if I had tried to buy 5.1 speakers on the same budget.


-Mike...

 

[John-Miles]

DVD-A samples at 24 bits, not 16

and either 96khz or 192khz frequency

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Sometimes my system gives me chills because I'll have dogs barking behind me or sounds that seem like they come from outside the room. I could never have achieved the same overall sound quality if I had tried to buy 5.1 speakers on the same budget.

Some of the Q sound CDs are really cool like Roger Waters Amused to Death...
Also, the Ana Caram and Badi Assad CDs from Chesky do some neat surround effects in two channel. One thing I did at Chesky was to participate in a two channel demo where we formed a line of percussion instruments (rain sticks, marimba, etc. David has a whole collection) and walked around our AKG C24 microphone and then out the door. This is one of our test CDs and it is the only recording of me playing an instrument (thank God!). The effect of the musicians walking around the chair you are sitted in is really cool.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I just found out that Goldmund, a maker of high end audio gear, is doing a Universal player. I will try to track down more information...
So for you well-heeled types, you have Goldmund and Linn to look to for Super Audio.