Dual Disc Approved by DVD Forum!!! (1 Viewer)

[Justin Lane]

Michael,

I couldn't have said it any better...




You forgot to add never listen to many SA-CD stereo tracks either as most releases from the past 20 years come from 24 bit (or less) PCM masters with sampling rates of 48 kHz.

J

 

[John Kotches]

Lee says:


If you were blind-tested, do you think you would be able to tell the difference between 24/96K and 24/192K? Everytime I could tell the difference it was sighted, ie I knew what was playing. I've done the experiment 3x and I couldn't tell a difference under blind conditions.

Funny though, I've never heard any complaints about Chesky's sound quality, and he's using in your own words "deficient" 24/96K.

Come to think of it, I never hear a complaint about Mark Waldrep's sound quality, and he just uses "deficient" 24/96K too. I'll have to give Mark a call tomorrow so he can hear about his deficient encoding. Maybe this will be the push to get him over the edge and start releasing SA-CDs. An offer of $$$ from Sony didn't do it, but maybe your proclamation of 24/96K as being "deficient" will be the straw that breaks the proverbial camels back. Yes, I'm sure that Mark was waiting for this tidbit of information to change over.

Universal Music doesn't seem to have any issues with working with 24/96K on a large portion of their SA-CD and DVD-A releases, yet you classify 24/96K as a deficiency. Universal has even stated that their archival tapes are being stored using the "deficient" 24/96K sampling rate.

Cheers,

 

[Rachael B]

Dual disc could be a kool format, if it gave you the choice of DVD-A, SACD, DAD, or something else on the hi-rez side. However, it will stille share both present HD-format's problem, 6 analog cables and confusing menu choices, for the joe sexpacks of zee wurld. Not to mention the proposition of more expensive discs too, another of the HD-format's shortcomings to that average joe.
I'm not too convinced that Dualdisc can deliver the yellow brick road...??? I just think M/C hi-rez is behind the eight-ball till equipment changes to make it purr-dy close to idiot-proof, and till a really big % of the audience has 5.1 set-up's, which may not be all that far in the future?

One format is better than two slugging it out, but the fundamental loneliness of analog cables in mass quantities haunts 5.1 , IMO...

 

[Will_B]

I must be confused. Before I'd bought my first DualDisc I'd assumed it was DVD-A on one side, the CD on the other. When I in fact bought one (David Bowie's Reality dualdisc, sold in Boston test market) I learned that it was actually a regular DVD layer on one side and CD on the other side. The audio on the DVD side is output through your DVD player's single digital Toslink cable. 5.1 surround just like most major movies.

Maybe different discs are different - maybe some also include a "DVD-A" portion? But the Bowie disc is simply what used to be known, for a brief time before the invenstion of SACD and DVD-A, as a "DAD" - a "digital audio disc" providing multichannel audio content that is compliant with the DVD video specs...not the DVD-A specs.

Someone who owns more than one DualDisc should chime in. But my impression from the Bowie dualdisc is that it is a standard CD on one side, and standard DVD (DVD5) on the other side.

Update: I just want to add that I would be glad if DualDisc takes off, if only because unlike the SACD and DVA-A, the labels behind DualDisc during the test run seemed to be focused on the present day rather than the 1970s.

 

[Michael St. Clair]

That's just Sony trying to create confusion. Every DualDisc released except for the ones from Sony include a true DVD-A side.

 

[Yee-Ming]

Interesting news. One previously disappointing issue with DVD-A was non-compatibility with redbook, meaning no playing in the car. Now that's been cured.

Oh, and chill, dudes. We don't want this, do we:-

 

[Lee Scoggins]

This is what I said:



The people at Steve Hoffman's board are very good and some are industry professionals. I made the statement about Koolade because I think that the board has many who worship too much at the altar of mastering when that is just part, a significant part, of the process. People there are familiar with the great results that Steve gets so it is understandable that they feel this way. Several of us on the board understand that sampling rate is important as well, such as Jamie and the other DSD and hirex PCM fans there. If you worked in a studio and witnessed first hand like I did the advent of 24/96 recording you will have understood how much better the sound was over 16/44 and 24/48 and 24/44. Likewise 24/192 represents a big step up.

If we stay at 24/96, it is like us adopting in the new video format MPEG2 instead of recent codecs like H264 and WM9....I know John does not want that in vdeo and he should not want that in audio either.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Will, I don't understand your post. How is Super Audio or DVD Audio focused on the 1970s?

I don't readily see any disadvantage.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

I think we need to set the record straight to be fair to Super Audio.

Many releases to date have been completely DSD sourced and most new ones are DSD; Stephen Best has a news story on the disc statistics as of a few months ago. Many of the Universals are from PCM sources but some are from analog tapes. Most specialty labels (this is the bulk of disc production in terms of title count) like Chesky for instance are doing only analog tape to DSD transfers.

Many Pentatone and other MC releases like Channel Classics are also being done in DSD given the availability of MC DSD workstations. When there is an older Sonoma or other workstations the tapes may go through an intermediate processing stage of 352khz which is hard to distinguish from Super Audio IMHO.

There are some case where the MC work was done in PCM like some of the DSOTM work, but that is a limitation of source material or older workstations, not the format itself. SACD specs have full resolution in all the channels.

 

[Justin Lane]

That is just unture Lee. Did you actually read my post PCM has been the standard for recording the past 20 years. Almost every SA-CD of material released from say 1980 to today of mainstream music is coming from a PCM master. Bottom line, case closed. To reiterate this point, ZERO mainstream studio pop/rock titles have been recorded to DSD since it's been on the market as a recording option. This speakes volumes.

Sony themselves has only done a handful of direct to DSD recordings (once again of classical type music). This speaks volumes.

Yes there have been a small number (relative to the total CD output each month) of DSD recordings from the likes of Telarc, but these are are far from mainstream releases (Classical and Jazz releases, many of which are off the wall).

As far as Chesky goes, you were set straight before on the Hoffman forum that for certain the first 10 Chesky releases were sourced from 24/96 PCM masters. As for later efforts, who knows? Please stop with the misinformation.

J

 

[John Kotches]

24bits x 192K x 6 channels = 27.65 Mbits/second.

Allowable sustained bandwidth = ~9.6 Mbits/second.

Only lossy compression can get the roughly 3:1 compression required on PCM data (or DSD for that matter) with existing technologies. This includes DTS Lossless compression (for PCM) that was recently introduced. The audio specifications and the compression codec are locked down.

The specifications for allowed deliverable media are what's being updated. I'm fairly certain you understand the distinctions here.

That doesn't preclude the creation of a better lossless compression codec in the future, but doing so produces a disc this would no longer be DVD-Audio as per specification. Never mind that you'd deliver data that can't be extracted on the millions of players that have been sold to date.

HD-DVD is another matter altogether. There, MLP will "suffice" for meeting the bandwidth requirements of HD-DVD too.

I know about your visit with Mark at the HE Show in New York. Mark and I spoke last week for about half an hour about a number of topics. When I asked how the show went he brought your name up.

Cheers,

 

[Will_B]

What i can tell you, other than that the test market included DualDiscs by bands like Jane's Addiction, while the SACD and DVDA stuff is largely not. Different people in charge? I don't know.

You know, it might simply have been that modern artists had more video material available for the DualDiscs. Whatever was the cause, it was a good thing. If there's even a chance that this emphasis will continue, that's excellent because it means the product will have mass appeal.

 

[Will_B]

What i can tell you, other than that the test market included DualDiscs by bands like Jane's Addiction, while the SACD and DVDA stuff is largely not. Different people in charge? I don't know.

You know, it might simply have been that modern artists had more video material available for the DualDiscs. Whatever was the cause, it was a good thing. If there's even a chance that this emphasis will continue, that's excellent because it means the product will have mass appeal.

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

What bothers me about all of the newer formats is the complete inconsistency with what is actually contained on them. Some are multichannel, some aren't, some are hi rez, some aren't, some have dual formats, some don't. How on earth do they expect the average consumer to feel comfortable buying into this?

While dual disc sounds like an attractive compromise for those looking to play discs in their cars, I would suspect that there are going to be some major compatability problems with car decks - many have trouble with regular CDs as it is. By loading up the DVD side, you are just asking for trouble induced by surface defects, since the data is more condensed. Have any of these companies actually seen how people treat CDs in their cars?

Dual Disc sounds like a stopgap measure to me. It does not address the really hi rez situation, nor does it do anything effective in terms of copy protection, at least on the CD side.

I also have increasing concerns about the long term viability of dual sided media. I have been seeing a number of my older DVDs deteriorate without any apparent cause other than manufacturing defects. Cementing a DVD onto a CD sounds great in theory, but will it still work 10 or 20 years from now?

I suspect this will be yet another format that has a limited lifespan.

 

[Jeff Ulmer]

What bothers me about all of the newer formats is the complete inconsistency with what is actually contained on them. Some are multichannel, some aren't, some are hi rez, some aren't, some have dual formats, some don't. How on earth do they expect the average consumer to feel comfortable buying into this?

While dual disc sounds like an attractive compromise for those looking to play discs in their cars, I would suspect that there are going to be some major compatability problems with car decks - many have trouble with regular CDs as it is. By loading up the DVD side, you are just asking for trouble induced by surface defects, since the data is more condensed. Have any of these companies actually seen how people treat CDs in their cars?

Dual Disc sounds like a stopgap measure to me. It does not address the really hi rez situation, nor does it do anything effective in terms of copy protection, at least on the CD side.

I also have increasing concerns about the long term viability of dual sided media. I have been seeing a number of my older DVDs deteriorate without any apparent cause other than manufacturing defects. Cementing a DVD onto a CD sounds great in theory, but will it still work 10 or 20 years from now?

I suspect this will be yet another format that has a limited lifespan.

 

[Justin Lane]

I definitely agree with this. However, if current trends continue, round optical disc based media will be a thing of the past with the mainstream. My guess is that it will probably take another decade before this comes about. Cheaper and cheaper storage will eventually allow people to archive their entire CD collection, and turn to downloadable media. But that's for another thread.

J

 

[Justin Lane]

I definitely agree with this. However, if current trends continue, round optical disc based media will be a thing of the past with the mainstream. My guess is that it will probably take another decade before this comes about. Cheaper and cheaper storage will eventually allow people to archive their entire CD collection, and turn to downloadable media. But that's for another thread.

J

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Thanks Will. I understand where you are going. You cannot blame Sony & Philips for wanting to get classic albums that will raise the appeal of SACD. Having more modern albums is happening however. We have the two recent Sting albums, Beyonce is coming out, and rumors are heavy that a Springsteen series may be up soon. You also have to be fair and include the royalty issue which Harry Fox Agency being very aggressive. That is nothing that Sony or Philips or Warner can control easily. Hopefully, when HFA sees all the money involved they will adopt a more reasonable position. As of now, there is probably negotiations on both sides.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

Thanks Will. I understand where you are going. You cannot blame Sony & Philips for wanting to get classic albums that will raise the appeal of SACD. Having more modern albums is happening however. We have the two recent Sting albums, Beyonce is coming out, and rumors are heavy that a Springsteen series may be up soon. You also have to be fair and include the royalty issue which Harry Fox Agency being very aggressive. That is nothing that Sony or Philips or Warner can control easily. Hopefully, when HFA sees all the money involved they will adopt a more reasonable position. As of now, there is probably negotiations on both sides.

 

[Lee Scoggins]

BS. Alison Krauss Live was a very popular CD and SACD recorded entirely in DSD. David Elias album was in DSD as were others. DSD is getting popular but it is a new format so it will take time. Most of the big name studios like Apple are recording lots of projects in DSD. They also like the integer-based downconversion to Red Book PCM.