Das Boot Uncut -- Is it just me or... (1 Viewer)

[Doug_L]

Carl, I'd agree with the first half of your post, except I don't think you've fully thought through the implications of the term "OAR" (if you have, I still disagree with you, but apologize for assuming you haven't). OAR, IMO, is not necessarily 16:9, or 2.35:1, or really any particular ratio: it is, as you've put it,

People who like OAR because if fills up their screen better, or more picture information, or any of the other plausible reasons that you've presented, don't really prefer OAR: they prefer a specific ratio, regardless of the reason for the ratio. It might be that the version they prefer is OAR, but they don't necessarily prefer it because it's OAR. That it is OAR is merely a coincidence.

So these hypothetical people don't support OAR, they really support versions of movies that are framed convieniently. Thus, they would apparently have no preference for the intent of the original picture, merely the ratio of the end result.

And so, although I haven't proven that anyone who supports OAR and not OSL is hypocritical, IMO I think I've proven that at least your denial of Jeff's assertion (OAR and not OSL=hypocrite) is false.

I'm glad, though, that you think any of these hypothetical (but not hypocritcial, in your opinion) people are wrong.

 

[Nathan_M]

In Criterion's The Seventh Seal, the subtitles do not appear to be quite as accurate when compared to the English dub. I was forced to watch it with the English dub and then, later, on my own, watched it with subtitles. There were several instances (I can go home and watch it and take notes if you want) where subtitles either weren't there or seemed to incorrectly translate what was being spoken. (I know, I don't speak Swedish, but if you hear bafrum and the Engish dub says bathroom and the subtitle reads kitchen, you know somethings up.) I would never have noticed it since I always try and watch movies in their original spoken language (I guess that's what OSL stands for).

 

[cafink]

People who like OAR because if fills up their screen better, or more picture information, or any of the other plausible reasons that you've presented, don't really prefer OAR: they prefer a specific ratio, regardless of the reason for the ratio. It might be that the version they prefer is OAR, but they don't necessarily prefer it because it's OAR. That it is OAR is merely a coincidence.

Perhaps I worded it poorly, but that's esentially the point I was attempting to make.

It's possible to like OAR for some reason other than the simple fact that it IS OAR. If someone calls for widescreen (where appropriate), I would consider him an "OAR supporter," whether his support stems from virtue of simply being OAR or not.

Doug, you disagree with me on this last point, is that correct?

 

[Doug_L]

Correct, I disagree.

Two "OAR supporters" with different TV's (one 4:3, the other 16:9) would not necessarily prefer the same version of a given film offered in both 1.85:1 and Pan&Scan. 2 "true OAR supporters" would always choose the same version (presumably the 1.85:1), regardless of their equipment.

To me the term OAR Supporter (if I can be so bold as to capitalize and define it) implies a person's preference for the intended theatrical presentation. A person is choosing to support the artist's vision/intent, and not the presentation ratio itself. One is a preference based on principal, the other is based on the shape of one's TV and how they like to use it.

 

[cafink]

Okay, semantics issues aside, I think my point still stands, even if the specific examples I used don't apply.

There are still reasons to prefer OAR that do involve a preference for the original composition but don't necessarily entail a preference for the original sound track.

For starters, there's the simple fact that most pan-and-scan transfers look UGLY. Even if one doesn't care what the filmmakers intended, the cropped version just looks unnatural and can be hard to watch at times. When you chop off a good bit of the picture, it's simply not going to look right. Dubs, on the other hand, don't have any inherent properties that make them bad. There's no reason a dub can't be performed, recorded, and mixed just as well as the original track. It isn't hard to imagine someone who prefers OAR for the proper composition — which will indeed mean OAR in all cases — but prefers a well-done dub. In fact, I think you'll find a lot of people like that among the HTF membership!

Or heck, what if the guy is just deaf?

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Jeff, it's interesting that you bring this point up. It seems to contradict the rest of your message.

The point I was trying to make was that they cannot claim that with animation, that "it's all dubbed", and therefore all the same. The US actors, even on the newer stuff (Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust, Blood: The Last Vampire, or Sin, which actually has _2_ OSLs, each dialogue track being an almost totally different film!) where the anime is done with an English OSL, are still awful.

 

[Lewis Besze]

Well to me the english dub was too loud,but only the dialog track,the effects and music seems the same,so I preffer the german version,it blends better with the rest of the recording elements.

I agree about this an LD "carryover" of flipper discs.

This could use a Superbit treatment.

 

[cafink]

The point I was trying to make was that they cannot claim that with animation, that "it's all dubbed", and therefore all the same. The US actors, even on the newer stuff (Vampire Hunter D Bloodlust, Blood: The Last Vampire, or Sin, which actually has _2_ OSLs, each dialogue track being an almost totally different film!) where the anime is done with an English OSL, are still awful.

But they are awful because they just happen to be awful, not because dubbing is inherently awful. If a superior English-language dub was done for an anime film, and the dub fans said, "it's all dubbed anyway, and look at what a great job they did," what would be your take on the situation?

Wouldn't you still want the original track out of principle?

Would you try to argue such to dub fans?

 

[Lars Vermundsberget]

In my country virtually no movies are dubbed. Close to all the movies I've watched during my lifetime have been in their original language, usually with subtitles. Unless you have a problem with reading in general, this is not hard to get used to.

BTW, this is one of the reasons why my ability to understand, speak, read and write English is as good as it is. Watch more German movies and listen to the original sound and you might eventually learn quite a bit of German.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

OSL is OSL. It doesn't matter if it were dubbed by Harrison Ford, Morgan Freeman, and Jack Nicholson. A dub is a dub, and OSL is OSL

Same goes for OAR. People could say "It's still the same movie, look how well they panned and scanned it!" and OAR is STILL OAR

 

[george kaplan]

This is an interesting debate. Some of these replies have made me think of something.

The Good, the Bad & the Ugly was filmed with the leads speaking in English and everyone else in Italian, all dubbed later.

Is English/Italian mixture the OSL? And if so, would watching this with subtitles for all the Italian be the 'proper' way to watch this film?

I'm really just curious where you draw the line on a film like this.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

George, for that type of film I would have to say it should be presented in the language of its original theatrical exhibition

 

[John CW]

Geeze what a way to skate round an answer! Where exactly? It's original theatrical exhibition in Italy or in the US?

Also you completely ignored this (important) point in my post: "??? So long as the original dub is there, it's hardly being hyprocritical wanting to listen to in dubbed in OAR! Why? Because in Germany they listen to it in their NATIVE LANGUAGE - WITHOUT SUBTITLES. How you say that the experience you get is closer to the director's vision when you can't understand what is said and your eyes are taken away from the picture and actor's performances?"

To reiterate: The director never intended the movie to be seen in a FOREIGN language with white words printed across the bottom of the screen. There are pros and cons to both OSL and dubbed, I really don't see any correlation to OAR so long as the OSL is included.

~ John

 

[Dennis Nicholls]

The real problem with an English dub in Das Boot is that you will miss one of the greatest jokes in the film. This is when the crew breaks into "It's a Long Way to Tipperary" IN ENGLISH. They do this to piss off the stiff-necked Nazi jerk. You may miss the point if you watch the English dub because there isn't the jarring change of language.

 

[Jeff Kleist]

Wherever it was shown first, in whichever language would theoretically be the OSL. I would have to do some research on the titles to be sure.

People always bring up the "Subtitles are for the weak" angle. If you gave watching subtitled movies any effort whatsoever, your eyes might be away for a quarter second with a little practice.