car subs vs. HT subs (1 Viewer)

[Dustin B]

I used an AVA250 with the Tempest sub I built. Theoretically I can use all of it's power output as 250 watts is what it takes to push the Tempest in my enclosure to Xmax. Have I come close to using the full 250 watts, I doubt it. But like the fellow above says, it provides the headroom. The AVA250 is capable of pushing my sub to it's clean output limits, but isn't capable of bottoming the driver. So no matter what I throw at my sub I shouldn't have any problems.
The bigger benefit of the AVA250 is unlike most other sub plate amps it has no boost in the 30-35hz range which can limit the power handling capabilities of your sub. Plus it has a rumble filter (2nd order high pass filter centered on 18hz). Without it, below 16hz it would be possible to bottom my sub. Don't know what would have the sound info to do that, but still it keeps my mind at ease knowing that it should be impossible to bottom my sub.

 

[Chris Popovich]

I use a parasound HCA 1500A running bridged (630rms) for my dual shiva sub and have pushed it's limits....
Chris

 

[NathanP]

ohhhhhhhh...
Shivas, I love those!
Nathan
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"Fascinating Captian"
--Spock
Visit www.speedemenu.com

 

[Jeremy Illingworth]

I'm going to start buildilng a Sonosub and was wondering about the car vs. home sub thing. So far the talk has been centered around using several cheapies in the place of a single Shiva. How about high quality car sub? If I find a 15 inch car sub with the same X max as the Tempest, would that be as good?
jeremy

 

[Jack Gilvey]

Xmax is really only one aspect, although it does tell much about how loud it will go. Fs, Qts are also important.

 

[NathanP]

Jeremy--
Try puttng a nice 1000w competition sub in there!
AWESOME
Nathan
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"Fascinating Captian"
--Spock
Visit www.speedemenu.com

 

[Lewis Besze]

Boy if these Shivas and such are so good at home,how would they sound in the car?

Quiet good thank you!
I have sonosub in my Jetta's trunk,about 2.2qft sealed,built by Terry C.He might even has picture of it somewhere,then maybe he can post it.
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"You Hungarians always disagree"

 

[Brian Dobbs]

Thank you all for replying. The point about having more headroom and getting less distortion by having more wattage really cleared things up.
To Jeremy Illingworth, the 4 Sony xplod's that I bought weren't "cheapies". In fact, they are quite supurb. Granted, they don't have an Xmax like a Tempest, but they definitely won't dissapoint!
My advice when buying a "car" sub is too look for one that has a frequency response down to 20hz, like the Sony's I bought. I've never seen a 15" "car" sub in retail stores.
To ALL, I'm 2/3 done building my cabinets. For testing purposes, I only had an old Yamaha stereo receiver to power the Sony's. The Yamaha is getting a sub output of a 5.1 receiver we have. It's my Dad's and said it wasn't any more than 35 watts per channel. I hooked up 1 Sony speaker to one channel of the Yamaha in one of the 2 boxes that were just built. Let me say that the 1 Sony sub was getting no more than 20 watts total and the sound *completely* filled the room, rather the house! No exaggeration! When I'm completely done building, I'll take pictures and share my designs and creations with you.

 

[Jasen Chandler]

This is my first post but I bring to the board a good knowledge of car audio. If there is any post I can comment on it is this one. Recently I have been involved in discussions and some installations using the Adire Audio Shiva. What a killer sub. I am amazed by this subwoofer. Not to mention Dan Wiggens has gone out of his way to help us car audio boys with questions. Now as far as the Sony goes, well the X-plode subs are known for being bottom of the line no output subs. I am sorry but one tempest with some juice will put those Sony's to shame.
I admire you and your dad at getting into home theater. We all have to start somewhere. Careful putting you home theater up against anyone elses. Rob Astons subs will change your religion, not to mention the sonosub with dual shiva's I heard this weekend.
Shivas and PE drivers are hard to beat.

 

[Bob Ahlberg]

Actually, if you have never seen a 15 car subwoofer in a retail store, you are going to the wrong stores. The Shiva subs are excellent subs for either home or mobile audio. It's only drawback for mobile audio is it's need for a slightly larger enclosure to perform well that dedicated car audio subs. Some examples:
An Image Dynamics IDQ15 for instance does very well in a 1.25 cu.ft. sealed enclosure with a Q of .7 and an F3 of about 50hz. With the cabin gain of car audio, it's flat to below 20hz, but it's a bit weak in home theater where it rolls of at 25hz in a 2.25 cu.ft. ported box.
Some excellent crossover subs are the Crystal CMP series as well as the Mass series subs. I mean crossover as in used in both environments. They are very expensive drivers.
The Sony 1235 you are using has an F3 of 50hz in a 1 cu. ft. sealed box and while it will play 20hz, it will be at so low a level that it's almost useless for real sound reinforcment. It has an xmax of .5 in, which isn't too bad, but it's not great. Best Buy sells these subs for 139 bucks a pair. The Shiva goes for a bit less than that for one and a Tempest for a bit more. There's no free lunch in life. You get what you pay for.
Bottom line...if you are happy, then it is/was a good project. Just don't ever listen a a good sonosub or even a pair of NHT1259's or PE Titanics for that matter. Your standard for "good" will change forever. Take it from someone who has tried repeatedly to make the inexpensive stuff sound like the good stuff. The Adire Audio drivers are not the be all and end all, but they are some of the best bang for the buck stuff out there today and you'll spend alot of money to get small degree's of improvement.
my .02
Bob
[Edited last by Bob Ahlberg on September 17, 2001 at 07:22 PM]

 

[Shawn Shultzaberger]

Dustin B, Awesome post! I have definitely been educated. I too have some car subs that I was thinking about using temporarily until I can convince the wife that we need an SVS.
They are the Infinity Beta 12"s 8ohm (.88 cu. ft. per). And I have seen them used in someones mini-theater at this forum (just don't remember who). He was using 4 or 6 of them mounted in his walls and said the bass was terrific.
I was thinking of building a sealed enclosure to house both of them using the same airspace. 1.76cu. ft. I believe. Again this is only temporary until the wife caves in for the SVS.
Currently I have a Klipsch KMS (50w 8") and it does the job well.
I am going to have to re-read your post a few times to see how these will stack up against the shiva. If they fall well short then I will just hold off until the money is avail for the SVS.
Man! I do love this site!
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Dear Tick: What would you do if bees took over the world?
Egad, Hogarth! When the bees implement their worldwide Fascist regime, I will be the first to go down into the honey mines. I will be the first to carry their squirming larvae in my teeth, to smear royal jelly on their chosen queen. And why? Good heavens! On account of the stinging!
[Edited last by Shawn Shultzaberger on September 18, 2001 at 10:53 AM]

 

[TerryC]

"I am going to have to re-read your post a few times to see how these will stack up against the shiva. If they fall well short then I will just hold off until the money is avail for the SVS."
DIY can better SVS and pretty much any commercial sub cost no object. SVS's biggest limitation is likely shipping requirements, if Tom could go bigger I'm sure he would!
If you can go a little bigger or a lot bigger you will likely better even SVS. Of course with the ultra line you'll need a better driver than the Shiva but better drivers are available too. Of course I am talking about the tried and tru drivers mentioned repeatedly in this forum section, ie Shiva, P.E. DVC, Tempest, Mass, Stryke and so on.
Only thing is SVS sells their regular line so inexpensively it makes DIY not worth it for the average person without the tools or knowledge. After time spent and tools purchased you will surely be out more money than it would have been to just buy an SVS in the first place. Heck even with the tools the average sub takes six to 12 hours after time spent it makes SVS look even more attractive.
It blows me away how Tom and Ron were making any money on them.
[Edited last by TerryC on September 18, 2001 at 08:20 PM]

 

[Ryan Schnacke]

I realize that I'm a bit late to the party. But I wanted to let Brian know that he has stumbled onto possibly THE BEST home theater forum in the world. The amount of experience and knowledge available here astounds me. We even have professional subwoofer designers/manufacturers (SVS) who frequent this board.
And these guys are here because they're really into this stuff. They read books about speaker design. They scour the web for high quality components and drivers. They run simulations. They build the subs. All sorts of alignments - sealed, passive radiator, ported, infinite baffle. And they do this over and over again. Where else can the average guy turn to get better advise?
And the best part is that these knowledgable, experienced subwoofer designers and builders are telling you that you can SAVE MONEY and get BETTER PERFORMANCE!!! That's the best news you could have hoped for. Like getting a $300 check back from the IRS. Why wouldn't anyone want this?

 

[AjayM]

Well Brian needs to look at the whole picture, he's worried that the people here don't know what they're talking about, however a quick search through the archives will squash that fear pretty quickly even for the most hardcore of disbelievers.
He's worried that we may lead him astray by telling him to go with Tempests or Shiva's, both of which are very popular, with hundreds if not thousands of webpages dedicated to them with comparisons to some very expensive competition.
Meanwhile he's buying 4 Sony car audio woofers for $240+, even though a single Tempest will easily beat those 4 woofers in the real world and at almost half the price...don't quite understand that in terms of getting screwed money wise.
We've tried to help, but sometimes you just have to learn through experience.
Andrew
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[Jack Gilvey]

Only thing is SVS sells their regular line so inexpensively it makes DIY not worth it for the average person without the tools or knowledge. After time spent and tools purchased you will surely be out more money than it would have been to just buy an SVS in the first place. Heck even with the tools the average sub takes six to 12 hours after time spent it makes SVS look even more attractive.

Excellent point, Terry! I'd say it would be equally true for Adire with their Rava and Dharman. It would hardly be worth it to try and duplicate a 20-39 or a Rava as a one-time project (as opposed to an enjoyable hobby) if you didn't have, or have access to, the proper tools/materials.
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[jeff lam]

HI,
I am a fan of both H/T and car audio.
I have also pondered this car sub in home thing and was wondering, If these Shivas and Tempests are so great and outperform 4 car subs in a smaller space, Why do all major competitions and nationals of car audio not feature any of these drivers? NOt all of them can be that stupid right???
Maybe all of you are biased to these subs because that's all you know and that's all you care about.
I would really be interested to see the head to head comparison in room response of a Shiva vs. JL or Audiobahn drivers in optimal enclosures.
Maybe this will be a test I will complete in the future when I have enough time and money.

 

[Seungsoo Hwang]

Im sure someone more knowledgable can throw in a coupla cents, but here's what I think of that.
First, don't the really big audio installs in those competitions have SPONSORS? They have to market the flashy cones, the chromed-out baskets, etc.. Adire does sponsor some people to my knowledge, but on that same note the Shiva/Temptest hasnt really been marketed as a Autosound subwoofer as nearly as much as for home usage, and its looks are utilitarian at best. The Adire drivers have seen competition, I just forget who the sponsored guy was.....
[Edited last by Seungsoo Hwang on September 20, 2001 at 06:46 PM]

 

[Jack Gilvey]

quote: Why do all major competitions and nationals of car audio not feature any of these drivers? [/quote]
Among other reasons, these "competitions" seem to be concerned with maximum SPL at a fairly high frequency (50Hz, maybe?)in the confines of a car, not true deep bass.
I'm sure there are sponsorship deals, too.
quote: Maybe all of you are biased to these subs because that's all you know and that's all you care about.[/quote]
Yeah, that must be it.
Look, a woofer is a woofer, and its properties are geared toward its intended market. "Car woofers" typically are geared toward performing well in an incredibly small space compared to a room in a house, and are geard toward maximum output relying heavily on the free boost they get from the "pressure vessel", or "cabin gain" of a car. Certain properties make a woofer well-suited for use in a large room. These have been expounded upon.
How about you tell us what you know about woofers, and why your favorite woofer is better than a Shiva or a Tempest. Please cite the parameters you feel buttress your argument. While you're at it, please list the specific claims made for the Adire drivers in this thread that you disagree with, again, citing facts.
quote: I would really be interested to see the head to head comparison in room response of a Shiva vs. JL or Audiobahn drivers in optimal enclosures. [/quote]
Bring it on. Please list the T/S parameters of these drivers you mention, so that we may see how great the are. There are specific woofers being discussed here, and there's no reason a "car" woofer can't be made to perform well in a room, it's just not usually the case.
So, if you have some facts, please present them.
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[Edited last by Jack Gilvey on September 20, 2001 at 09:02 PM]

 

[AjayM]

I would really be interested to see the head to head comparison in room response of a Shiva vs. JL or Audiobahn drivers in optimal enclosures.

Ok a Shiva costs $115 from Adire, grab up all other subs that cost the same (say withing 10%) and compare them. The Shiva is going to rate close to the top if not the top (by the way there is a test of 12" drivers somewhere on the net, a few of them are autosound drivers), so as to value or bang for the buck you aren't going to beat the Shiva....and certainly not with the Sony drivers that have been purchased by Brian. That's the facts, unless you know of some other driver that all of our collective knowledge have never heard of.
Andrew
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[Dustin B]

AjayM, It was a single Tempest in a truck with 500 watts. He hit 152.3 dB. Needless to say, in his price and power class he won easily. You can check out his page here:
Link Removed
Not my cup of tea, but hey, what every makes you happy (that is as long as you aren't playing it at that level next to me in traffic).
He's also recieved one of Adire's Maelstroms and is replacing his Tempest with it. Should give him another 3dB or more.
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Dustin
[email protected]
My Adire Tempest Sonosub