CAMELOT - WARNER VID, YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED. (1 Viewer)

[GMpasqua]

Originally Posted by MatthewA /t/320441/camelot-warner-vid-you-should-be-ashamed/30#post_3922278


As for the brown tones, it's not just Warner who seems to have a brown fetish. Fox seems to be timing fleshtones a little to the brown side, too

these transfers are done in Los Angeles, and everything here is a little on the brown side...it's in the air

 

[haineshisway]

I wish others would be as measured with their tone as you've been Bruce. My apologies if earlier I was having difficulty grasping where you were coming from.
With The Searchers a new home video release very well could happen eventually. The prestige of the title certainly would warrant it, and it fortunately has Mr. Wayne's enduring popularity to make it possibly worthwhile financially as well.

Thanks for the nice post. I weep for joy when I see a perfect transfer, color-wise. I sat here literally with tears in my eyes when I watched The Ten Commandments - that's what color of that era is all about. White Christmas, too. It's my fervent prayer that Universal gets the Hitchcocks right and that Warners gets Singin' in the Rain right - I will be here singing their praises if they do, believe me

 

[John Hodson]

Mr. Price is neither "incompetent nor purposely misleading."
Enough time has elapsed to give me a bit of comfort in discussing this further.
The Searchers, as case in point, is a difficult beast. Mr. Price was faced with a myriad of tech problems -- unfortunely, few of which that could be properly and fully dealt with by WB at that time. Note that I'm not referencing Mr. Price here, as it was not his capabilities that come into question, but rather, labs and post houses, in general.
The digital work on The Searcers was already under way, as I was proving a new system over at CineSite. WB was neither privy to, nor had the ability to use that system, which could have solved the problems. What occurred, is that The Searchers went through the best processing available, which was unable to solve some of the problems. With specificity, the occasional off-casts were a by-product of how the entire job had to be handled. Yellow is the key to controlling both a lack of contrast, as well as getting as close as possible to proper color.
With both a faded original, as well as problematic masters, the film was pretty much as good as it could be under those circumstances.
As to Mr. Price's capabilities, consider North by Northwest and Ben-Hur. I don't believe either could look better.
The bottom line is that what one is dealing with is the state of a rapidly moving art, and not personalities.
RAH

Interesting, thank you. The Searchers will come again, and we'll all buy again. And so it goes...

 

[DeeF]

I'm not old enough to have seen The Searchers when it was new, but I have been to Monument Valley, many times (went to college in Utah). The color of The Searchers is too yellow. The sand in Monument Valley is red/pink, but on the BD it looks yellow/tan. And all the bluejeans are turquoise. There is too much yellow in the color of the current transfer of The Searchers. I watch this movie on Bluray a lot, and I always adjust the color (which doesn't completely solve the problem, but is at least something I can do about it).
It was also true of Gone with the Wind, the deluxe DVD set. The bluegray walls of the Wilkes mansion turned tan — too much yellow.
Also true of The Wizard of Oz, the final DVD set (before the bluray). Dorothy's white blouse was suddenly off-white/tan — too much yellow.
Also true of Ben-Hur, the final DVD set (before the bluray). Pervasive gold/yellow hues, even the white horses turned yellow.
Also true of North by Northwest, where Cary Grant's tan became orange! Too much yellow there.
Somebody at Warners likes yellow, or erroneously thinks that there was too little yellow (before they got there to fix it).
I recognize that there may have been numerous technical problems with the source materials on one of these (such as The Searchers) which could only be solved by color imbalance. But when all these films show the same problem, then I have to start attributing it to... personal taste.
And these are the biggest titles in Warners' vault, not some little restoration done for archival purposes.

 

[Richard--W]

Makes complete sense. Thank you.

It makes no sense whatsoever, especially when you consider all the other films Ned Price is responsible for over-saturating with yellow and orange that did not share The Searchers problems.
However, I have too much respect for RAH and too much admiration for his restoration work to take issue with him on this forum.
As someone pointed out earlier in this thread, there is no reason to be tolerant of Warner Home Video when they commit an offense like they did with the Blu-ray and DVD of The Searchers.

 

[Richard--W]

I'm not old enough to have seen The Searchers when it was new, but I have been to Monument Valley, many times (went to college in Utah). The color of The Searchers is too yellow. The sand in Monument Valley is red/pink, but on the BD it looks yellow/tan. And all the bluejeans are turquoise. There is too much yellow in the color of the current transfer of The Searchers. I watch this movie on Bluray a lot, and I always adjust the color (which doesn't completely solve the problem, but is at least something I can do about it).
It was also true of Gone with the Wind, the deluxe DVD set. The bluegray walls of the Wilkes mansion turned tan — too much yellow.
Also true of The Wizard of Oz, the final DVD set (before the bluray). Dorothy's white blouse was suddenly off-white/tan — too much yellow.
Also true of Ben-Hur, the final DVD set (before the bluray). Pervasive gold/yellow hues, even the white horses turned yellow.
Also true of North by Northwest, where Cary Grant's tan became orange! Too much yellow there.
Somebody at Warners likes yellow, or erroneously thinks that there was too little yellow (before they got there to fix it).
I recognize that there may have been numerous technical problems with the source materials on one of these (such as The Searchers) which could only be solved by color imbalance. But when all these films show the same problem, then I have to start attributing it to... personal taste.
And these are the biggest titles in Warners' vault, not some little restoration done for archival purposes.

Don't forget the yellowing of The Adventures of Robin Hood and She Wore a Yellow Ribbon.

 

[Joe Caps]

Speaking of Ben Hur, that has a remixed soundtrack too.
One example - It used to be, in all prints of ben hur, that when the Satr of Bethlehem appeared, There was two notes that were orchestra only, on the third note, the chorus appeared loud and clear.
ON the first two issues of BenHur n dvd (first single dvd then later a remastered box set, the chorus was faded in late.) On the blu of Ben Hur, the chorus is GONE completely during Star of Bethlehem. thisis true of the foreign tracks which are also 5.1 remixes. Only the mono Hungarian track has the chorus where it should be.

 

[DeeF]

In the DVDBeaver comparison of Gone with the Wind, it's very easy to see the "yellowing" at Warners. It's the middle picture, the 4-dvd set of Gone with the Wind, that is overly yellow. It was corrected somewhat for the Bluray, although perhaps not enough.
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcompare6/gonewiththewind.htm
Note in particular the scene of Scarlet running through the chaos in Atlanta. In the middle DVD picture, even the red bricks of the building have turned yellow.
P.S. I don't know what Camelot is supposed to look like, but it does seem awfully brown.

 

I don't have a problem with GWTW, considering that they were going for earth tones (especially during the middle act.)

 

[GMpasqua]

In Logan's book he states they were going for muted earth tones. Lerner didn't want the technicolor reds of the 1950 knights of the round table pictures. Lerner goes as far as saying he liked the color filters in "South Pacific" which one reason he wanted Logan to direct

The DVD of "Camelot" was very colorful and much brighter than the film was in the theater. But the blu-ray is on the brown side (as is "The Music Man" and the DVD of "Mary Poppins") but the Blu-ray looks much more like the film did in the theaters in the 70's. During the 80's 90's video companies would pumped up the color on various films and only later were they corrected (Universals "Dracula" from 1978-79 for example). Even "Amadeus" looked better on DVD than in the theater were it was dark and dull (at least at the second run houses)

The only Blu-rays I own that do not look like the films did in the theater are "Patton" which I saw twice in 70MM (Dimension 150) and looks like actors from the wax museum, and "Bull Durham" which was much sharper, more colorful and richer at the Criterion in New York City. I remember being impressed with the image when I first saw it, but on video it never looked as good, and is one of the softest Blu-ray i have seen..

 

[Joe Caps]

What Logan did NOT want was the same old loook that all Hollywood films had for medieval times - Liions ion red flag backgrounds etc.
Greg, You keep using aas your reference a 70mm print you saw in 1978, ten years after the fact. I.E. this could hardly be an original print as that would nave gone red by 1978.
the original prints had planetly of color for the opening scenes where Arthur meets Guenevers, with a pink castle far off in the background and yello sky reflecting on the snow. there is very littleof that color on the new blu ray.

 

[haineshisway]

Just a note: Snow is not brown or tan

 

[Joe Caps]

True, but I never said the snow was either color, but that the opening snow scene in the forest had plenty of color, now lost n the blu ray.

 

[rsmithjr]

In the DVDBeaver comparison of Gone with the Wind, it's very easy to see the "yellowing" at Warners. It's the middle picture, the 4-dvd set of Gone with the Wind, that is overly yellow. It was corrected somewhat for the Bluray, although perhaps not enough.
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcompare6/gonewiththewind.htm
Note in particular the scene of Scarlet running through the chaos in Atlanta. In the middle DVD picture, even the red bricks of the building have turned yellow.
P.S. I don't know what Camelot is supposed to look like, but it does seem awfully brown.

My own view of these screen caps is that the first is far too blue, the second a bit too brown, and the Blu-ray just right.
The prized 1954 dye-transfer prints have a sepia look to them. The Blu-ray retains much of that while livening many of the colors.
Someone at Warners is doing something right!

 

[trajan]

I saw CAMELOT in 67 and feel this is a fine presentation. I do not see it as being too brown. It looks very close to what I remember it to be. Who's decision to remove the chorus when young Tom is running away from battle is a mystery. I miss it.

 

[Richard--W]

In the DVDBeaver comparison of Gone with the Wind, it's very easy to see the "yellowing" at Warners. It's the middle picture, the 4-dvd set of Gone with the Wind, that is overly yellow. It was corrected somewhat for the Bluray, although perhaps not enough.
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcompare6/gonewiththewind.htm
Note in particular the scene of Scarlet running through the chaos in Atlanta. In the middle DVD picture, even the red bricks of the building have turned yellow.
P.S. I don't know what Camelot is supposed to look like, but it does seem awfully brown.

I agree, Gone With the Wind Blu-ray shifts the color closer to where it should be, but not far enough. Still too much yellow throughout the film.The red sky is still a little orange behind the wagon when Rhett pulls Scarlet to kiss her. And there are other examples. For that matter, the red dusk in The Searchers, when the Indians are about to attack the cabin, is an intense orange. Not nearly as tense and suspenseful as the red, a color which Ford stipulated in the script to Hoch.
Orange skies. Give me a break.
There is no excuse for orange skies in Gone With the Wind and The Searchers.. How can people look at that and not realize something is wrong?

 

[KPmusmag]

Who's decision to remove the chorus when young Tom is running away from battle is a mystery. I miss it.

I agree. Speaking only for myself, that is my biggest disappointment with the blu-ray.

 

[Ethan Riley]

I got my blu ray of Camelot today, watched it once and gave it away.
What a travesty.
Picture - dull looking picture, beyond belief.
the dvd has more color than this, grain is all gone, and so is all fo the detail. Horrid !!!!
Sound - this is still the remix done for the first dvd and has NOTHING in common with the film thjat was nominated for
1. best Sound - that sound is not on this disc.
2. best music adaptation - that has all been screwed up here by wrong music takes, wrong background score in one scene, wrong voice to orehstra balance, partial chorus missing during Wedding chorus, chorus missing while Tome of warwick is running through the scene. You name it- this disc has it wrong.
I"m starting to think that someone at Wrners hates Lerner and Loewe.
Proof - blu ray of gigi, supposedly restored piture but its now all shades of red.
blu ray of My fair Lady - Nuiff said.
this new blu ray of Camelot - some one should be crucified for this one.

Tell ya what--Warners will be crucified when you learn to spell properly. Fair?
I'm not sure if this disc was that bad. Was it really? Or is all of this descending into hyperbole for the sole purpose of banging a drum and getting a controversial-sounding thread title with your name on it? I have to ask. I too watched it; it's not the greatest blu-ray I've ever seen but it's not trash, either. It's acceptable. And Robert Harris already explained why they couldn't do a transfer from the original negative (it's probably in poor shape).
I think they did the best they could without running into serious cost overruns. It was a compromise, but it's not possible to do a true restoration at this time. It's been suggested on other threads that some of the original sound elements are missing anyway, so that perhaps explains why the choral mix is different in places. We who followed the other Camelot thread (does there have to be another Camelot thread? That one sufficed, and yet here is another one) also know why the resolution is low in the opening titles. No mystery; and the titles would have had to have been reshot to get them up to 1080p.
Yeah, they didn't do everything they could have done, but again, I believe they did the best they could. To do it "right," they would have had to restore the negative, re-record some of the music and maybe even the chorus? and reshoot the titles. Would have cost millions and who knows if it would have even turned out right. But they did put out a perfectly acceptable blu-ray, and have no reason to be ashamed of such an effort. The options are these: live with it, don't buy it, or wait until Camelot undergoes a very costly restoration at some future date.

 

[Robin9]

The options are these: live with it, don't buy it, or wait until Camelot undergoes a very costly restoration at some future date.

I'll wait until Camelot undergoes a very costly restoration at some future date.
There's nothing wrong with Joe Caps' spelling. It's his proof reading - or lack of it - that's open to criticism.

 

[Richard--W]

I'll wait until Camelot undergoes a restoration at some future date.
Meanwhile I'll complain about a studio that is millions of dollars in the black and yet too cheap and too unprofessional to do a proper transfer with proper sound.