Are Velodyne subs under $500 still sublime? (1 Viewer)

[Thomas_Berg]

I have been considering the RAVA and the Hsu VTF-2, but i was milling around on onecall.com and saw some being offered for

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

onecall had the ct150 for $499 too, that would be a close match for the VTF-2.
TV

 

[Claude M]

'Special Only $499.00 Good through July 30, 2001'
Not much time left! You might want to stop in on your local Vel dealer too. Since the CTs are being replaced they will be priced to move. Good luck.

 

[DanWiggins]

Thomas,
Many folks have replaced CT120s with Ravas, and all are quite happy. The CT150 would be, IMHO, a tossup; however, Rava is still $100 lower cost than a discounted CT150.
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio

 

[Will]

CT-100 is refurb at $249.

Are there better subs he should consider for $249?

 

[DanWiggins]

For under $249, it would be the CT100 IMHO. Or go the DIY route (which can be done for under that price, and some sweat equity).
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio
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[Thomas_Berg]

but should i go Velodyne over the Hsu? which is better (i'm gonna do music more than HT)?

 

[DanWiggins]

Personally, I'd take the Vel or Rava over the Hsu (well, to be honest I'd take the Rava, but then again I am biased... ). Especially for music - I think either one will produce a better output for music reproduction.
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio
[Edited last by DanWiggins on July 26, 2001 at 06:12 PM]

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>but should i go Velodyne over the Hsu? which is better (i'm gonna do music more than HT)?

 

[DanWiggins]

On the other hand, having heard both subs, I prefer the sound of the VT150, especially for music. It simply sounds better, to my ears. The VTF-2 may be able to crank out a bit more SPL, but to my ears it doesn't sound as crisp or natural as either the VT150 or the Rava.
And, to my own measurements, the Rava can hold its own against the VTF-2. Is it independent testing? Well, I'll repeat them for others, if they want to stop by. Personal is about as independent as you can get.
I guess if you want to just judge subs by their numbers, well, go that route. To my ears, the VT150 or Rava would be a better selection, especially for music.
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio

 

[Michael Roderiques]

Thomas About once a year Velodyne sort of cleans out the closets, that is all the units returned for various reasons are pulled out of storage. most of these are from retailers refusing delivery due to the boxes being damaged. In most cases the sub you could buy as a refurbished unit has never been used. They are taken completely apart, inspected, tested and then reassembled. They may actually be better than a brand new one in the store.
The CT series is replaced by the CHT series, for the most part the big change is in cosmetics. The CT series was designed to be a Home Theater sub. the idea was to bring the same sound in a movie theater into your home theater. They do a very good job of that. As Tom Vodhanel has noted Tom Nousaine has fully reviewed the CT series subs. He did give them very good ratings.
If you are looking for a music only sub-woofer, my opinion would be that the CT series may not be the best choice of Velodyne subs. I would recommend that you look into the VLF series. Tom Nousaine did a review of the VLF. It was published a few months ago. Again it was rated very highly.
The VLF was designed more for a music system.
Michael

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>On the other hand, having heard both subs, I prefer the sound of the VT150, especially for music. It simply sounds better, to my ears. The VTF-2 may be able to crank out a bit more SPL, but to my ears it doesn't sound as crisp or natural as either the VT150 or the Rava.>> Is it independent testing? Well, I'll repeat them for others, if they want to stop by. Personal is about as independent as you can get.>I guess if you want to just judge subs by their numbers, well, go that route.

 

[Thomas_Berg]

And at $499...the ct150 is also a really good deal.

i once owned a 15" sub and it seemed slow in response to the music. is that a general quality of larger drivers? it went really low and sounded good, but i would have traded it for a 12" anyday. i'm going to circuit city (ooh, divx still hurts) tomorrow to check them out. but is it normal for larger subs to be slower in sound delivery?
(btw- it was an MTX 15" for the car)

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>i once owned a 15" sub and it seemed slow in response to the music. is that a general quality of larger drivers? it went really low and sounded good, but i would have traded it for a 12" anyday. i'm going to circuit city (ooh, divx still hurts) tomorrow to check them out. but is it normal for larger subs to be slower in sound delivery?

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>If you are looking for a music only sub-woofer, my opinion would be that the CT series may not be the best choice of Velodyne subs. I would recommend that you look into the VLF series. Tom Nousaine did a review of the VLF. It was published a few months ago.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

I do think independent performance verification like this is a valuable INDICATOR of the subwoofer's capability's however. There's many that disagree with me and think objective data is worthless though...different strokes I guess

Well, I don't see how anyone can justify the contention that such data as Nousaine's provides no useful information whatsoever, although I wouldn't choose a sub based solely on how loud it can get at certain frequencies. Were TN to measure my dual-Tempest IB, he may very well find that it measures very similarly to the Hsu TN1220HO/500 watt amp combo I had installed in the same room/corner, but they certainly don't sound the same to me calibrated identically . I wonder what other measurements might be useful to quantify the sound we hear from a sub.

 

[DanWiggins]

Quote:

That wasn't my intent, and if it wasn't clear, please forgive me! Rather, it would be like going to the Dodge dealer, and asking to ride along when they measure the Viper's performance at the track. Not just some other magazine or 3rd party, but see the measured performance yourself.
Overall, music subs are pretty different beasts than HT subs. Even placement should be considered different. David Griesinger's works on the subject of acoustic (including bass) envelopment, for example (Link Removed) should be required reading prior to setting up a music-targeted system (for those that don't know, David is the chief scientist as Lexicon, as well as a highly respected and contributing member of the AES). Music subs need more than just high SPL output; again, the works of Griesinger, and even Linkwitz, or Tolve, or J. Johnson are quite enlightening on this subject.
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio

 

[DanWiggins]

I'd look at things like transient response, for starters. How well does the system track a sine burst? This is often what people refer to as "speed" of a system. A system that tracks transient inputs quickly. That is, when the sonic burst is finished, how long does the system keep generating signal? If I put a a 5 cycle 40 Hz tone burst into the system, how much delay is there before it reaches 90% of full amplitude output? Likewise, how much delay is there when the burst ends, and the output of the system settles to 10%?
Additionally, there's the entire sub/room interaction thing, which is the primary reason Mr. Linkwitz advocates dipoles! Heresy to some (I'm sure several on this board) to build a sub with NO enclosure and limited bass "SPL capability", nevertheless many well respected researchers and designers adhere to this design, because of the quality of the bass, especially in room.
Then there's the issue of group delay, which again shows correlation between perceived quality and system designs.
Lastly, I'd also look at the distortion spectrum itself. close-spaced twin-tone sweeps are quite instructive about the distortion spectrum of the driver. MANY drivers exhibit peaks in the distortion spectrum in the 300-600 Hz range, while better drivers push that down lower, where's it is not as audible. They would measure the same THD, but to your ear, the driver with the lower peak spectrum would sound cleaner.
If I sounded like I dismissed Mr. Nousaine's works, please let me correct myself! That was not my intent at all. He's collected some very important data, if for no other reason to get a good handle which subs can linearly displace more air than others.
Rather, I wanted to take the position that max SPL at various frequencies is not all there is to subwoofers, and that in my opinion, there's not too much correlation between max SPL and audible accuracy, especially with music (as you've noticed with your IB... ).
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio

 

[Jack Gilvey]

If I sounded like I dismissed Mr. Nousaine's works, please let me correct myself! That was not my intent at all.

I certainly didn't read it that way, Dan, I'm sorry if it seemed like I was referring to you.
Those values which you mentioned are what I had in mind, and would have to be included before we can say with any degree of confidence that a sub's performance can be described by a "comprehensive" set of measurements.

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>I guess independent distortion measurements of the driver (which generates the VAST majority of the distortion in any subwoofer when the amp isn't clipping) by none other than Siegfried Linkwitz doesn't count? He's measured a Shiva running at a moderate level - 23V applied - and found well below 10% THD. Extrapolate that to in-box, and you're at 90 dB SPL at 20 Hz, anechoic for that level of drive.