Are Velodyne subs under $500 still sublime? (1 Viewer)

[DanWiggins]

Quote:

Exactly. You can get a very general idea about possible performance with simple THD/SPL measurements, but IMHO (and those of several others I regard quite highly, like Mr. Linkwitz, John Dunlavy, Floyd Toole, Paul Barton, Griesinger, etc.) you need this extra data to get a set of data you can really compare. Often this is the subjective part of a review, as it's not directly measured but is described by the reviewer. It should be taken into account, IMHO.
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio
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[DanWiggins]

Quote:

Umm, no, that's not what I was saying. Come on by, you can watch us make the measurements themselves. It's like getting to strap into the cars when they're making their runs. Can't get more first-hand and personal than that!
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree again...
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio
[Edited last by DanWiggins on July 27, 2001 at 12:47 PM]

 

[SteveK]

Dan, Tom- If you don't mind me saying so, this thread appears to be turning into a shootout between the makers of two competing subwoofers, which is of little value to the person that asked the original question about Velodyne subs. A shootout would be fine, but it should be a shootout between two competing subs, not between the manufacturers of those subs!
After all...we all want both of you around to continue to manufacture your subs, both of which are probably the best products you can find for the cost.
Just an observation, and I hope I'm not out of line.
Thanks
Steve K.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

I think what Tom (and I, for that matter)would find valuable about the Nousaine (proud IB owner

) testing and list is that since they're all tested with the same methodology in the same room (or have been corrected for such), the results are directly comparable. This does not discount subs which happen to have not been tested by him and are not on the list, of course.
Steve...I learn the most when these two individuals get into one of these "shootouts"...

[Edited last by Jack Gilvey on July 27, 2001 at 01:33 PM]

 

[John-D]

right Steve.. all this made me realize that I'm as clueless about Auto as I was about Audio

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The things we own end up owning us

 

[Kevin Peak]

I too have learned quite a bit from the clashing of the ram's horns here... I just hope it doesn't come to blows... ;P
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Thanks,
kevp

 

[Thomas_Berg]

as the originator of this post, i tend to agree. i have learned alot and still have lots to learn! you both make excellent subs (as i've heard...in one sense!), so i think it's decision time on my part.
anyway...I went to Circuit City today to sample some Velodynes and was decently impressed. they had really crappy equipment they were running it through, and the only cds they had to demo were ricky martin and celine dion, so there was no real chance for me to enjoy the good sound i came for.
then i went to Conns. for the first and last time. OMG that place was horrible. the guy had ABSOLUTELY no idea what he was talking about, knew nothing about anything besides JBL, couldn't tell me why Dolby Digital was good, and, for the crowning touch...When i asked him about DVD-Audio (just to see) he said, "Of course we have it...right over here." he took me to the DVD players and said, "Here you go- a DVD player that plays audio cds."
i rest my case.
[Edited last by Thomas_Berg on July 27, 2001 at 01:57 PM]

 

[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>I guess we'll have to agree to disagree, then. I've found it to track quite well,>I guess, though, if it's not measured by Nousaine or Keele, then it's not really approved, so it can't be considered at all?>>So, in essence, if a subwoofer hasn't been reviewed by one of these three sources, it really can't be compared to others? Basically there's a list of "approved" reviews and then the rest?But then you're discounting the hundreds of subjective opinions on the web, too.>>As Jack points out (and quite accurately, IMHO), there's more to subs than SPL/distortion measurements. Subjective sound quality should be considered, too, and that's where the opinions become important. IMHO, to not consider these and go strictly by a limited set of numbers is a mistake.>Rather, it would be like going to the Dodge dealer, and asking to ride along when they measure the Viper's performance at the track. Not just some other magazine or 3rd party, but see the measured performance yourself.

 

[Jack Gilvey]

quote: I've said in the past the objective data isn't going to tell you everything the subwoofer CAN do...but it will be a damn good indicator of what the subwoofer can NOT do.[/quote]
Very well put. I think one judgement I might certainly make based solely on those numbers is that a sub which can only muster 25Hz at, say, 80db is certainly not for me. That's the kind of help such a list provides. For me, at least. If I were ever to sink so far as to purchase another commercial sub, that is. (Present companies' products excluded, of course.)

[Edited last by Jack Gilvey on July 27, 2001 at 02:39 PM]

 

[DanWiggins]

Tom,
Mr. Linkwitz has tested hundreds of drivers, speakers, and full systems in his time. Perhaps you'e not aware this is the same individual who's name appears on the Linkwitz Riley crossover? He also headed up Audio Artistry, makers of the big dipole systems that won critical acclaim everywhere.
If you want to know a bit about some of the work he's done - both in theory and measurements - a brief scan through the dozens and dozens of AES papers he's authored should work.
I guess my only point is that there's considerably more to driver evaluation than just SPL levels/THD measurements. And, in fact, there's quite a few very distinguished individuals who will tell you that when it comes to accurate musical reproduction, the baseline data provided by the likes of Nousaine, Keele, and others (THD @ SPL), is really quite minimal at best. Using that data for determination of a sub's qualifications - especially for music - is shaky at best. It must be considered along side of the subjective review, especially when the other measurements mentioned in this thread are lacking. A high SPL sub with extremely poor transient response will usually be subjectively rated lower than a lower SPL driver with great transient response (Griesinger and Tolve are good sources of such studies).
As far as how we measure THD, there's a NICE description of the approach in the LAUD manual; I think there's also a description at Liberty Instruments website, too. We measure ground-plane, 1 meter, and subtract 6 dB to get back to anechoic values (why 1 meter, rather than 2 meters? Simple: noise rejection. It increases S/N by 6 dB). Simple as that.
Anyway, this is turning into a pissing match, and I've had enough of those with you in the past. You and I probably won't ever agree on many points, and I think there's precious little gain in continuing it.
Dan Wiggins
Adire Audio
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[Tom Vodhanel]

>>>Tom,
Mr. Linkwitz has tested hundreds of drivers, speakers, and full systems in his time. Perhaps you'e not aware this is the same individual who's name appears on the Linkwitz Riley crossover? He also headed up Audio Artistry, makers of the big dipole systems that won critical acclaim everywhere