Another one about lawyers (1 Viewer)

[Reginald Trent]

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as Mike pointed out, I fail to see how this is "another one about lawyers."
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I agree, this has nothing to do with lawyers and everything to do with the misuse/inappropriate abuse of authority. Here we have a prosecutor wasting taxpayers money and resources to go after a child in what could be call frivolous. I have to wonder how many people she has prosecuted and locked up for jaywalking?

 

[Keith Mickunas]

This is sickening. Essentially all the kid did was cheat. Its the fact that he used a computer that elevated this to a crime. If he had changed grades on paper most likely he would have faced a suspension at most along with a failing grade.

Some politicians treat any computer crime as being as dangerous as terrorism. Seriously, they put it on that level. While some computer crimes could be dangerous, such as attempting to bring important systems (communications, air traffic control, defense systems, etc.) most are not dangerous crimes and shouldn't be treated as such.

Look at this:
"It's cheating. It's depriving other students of the fairness of the system," she said. "It's as much a fraud as anything else. Sometimes, you have to do things as an example of the authority of both the school system and the legal system."

Are they going to go after every kid that cheats in this school? I doubt it. Most likely the law wouldn't allow it. But because this kid used a computer in the process of cheating, now he faces jail time.

Lets hope that the judge has more sense than the lawyer. Perhaps the ACLU or some other lawyers that care about civil liberties will get involved and help protect this kid. This is a case where I think the school should be sued. IMHO the police should only be called when there is violent crime or drugs involved or if the issue at hand goes beyond the schools boundaries (i.e. the kid hacked into outside computers).

 

[Dennis Nicholls]

I can't say that I've ever cheated on a test- though, in return for the homework "help," I can remember not shielding my test paper too much.

"Helping" others is just as much cheating as if you did it to help yourself get a better grade. The fact that you cannot see this is troubing, as is the fact that you feel entitled to make a joke out of it.

 

[Kevin T]

while on the surface it seems easy to write this off as just a child being a child, he did in fact break a law even though the law probably wasn't written with this type of offense in mind. and as we all know, ignorance of the law is not an excuse. i seriously doubt the child will receive any type of time in a juvenile detention center. most likely he'll have a probation officer for a few months, maybe a year. what some of you here are suggesting is exactly the reason why this type of pernicious behavior persists. people apparently seem to no longer feel they are accountable for their own actions. it may just be youthful "hi-jinks" to some but at his age he still knows the difference between right and wrong and should suffer the consequences of his decision.

kevin t

 

[Todd Hochard]

"Helping" others is just as much cheating as if you did it to help yourself get a better grade. The fact that you cannot see this is troubing, as is the fact that you feel entitled to make a joke out of it.

No, all I'm saying is that I'm intelligent enough not to project adult-like consequences (felony rap and jail time for changing grades on an unsecure machine) onto children. Adults aren't suffering these consequences (after all, you can kill/run over your spouse THREE times, and be out in 12 with good behavior, it seems), so why should an 11 year old kid be made such an example?

And, I don't feel badly about helping others at that time. Perhaps, for some, that boost was what they needed to not give up completely. Who can say?

I wouldn't set that example now as a 30-something adult, but 11-year old kids don't think like 30-something adults. And THAT is my point. Integrity is something that is taught- just like Math- not a trait that one comes out of the womb with.

Let me ask more bluntly- if it was your child, would you think three years in juvie, from age 11 to 14, which would likely define the sort of friends he keeps for the remainder of his adolescence, be appropriate??

Todd

 

[Josh Lowe]

He should be made an example of, he obviously knew precisely what he was doing.

 

[Allen_Appel]

He should be made an example of, he obviously knew precisely what he was doing.

While he certainly knew he was cheating, he surely didn't know the consequences would be this severe. An 11-year-old probably doesn't even know the concept of "felony crimes". His expectation of punishment might have run along the lines of a lecture from teacher/principal/parents and a suspension, which is appropriate. I hope those of us casting stones look back on our pasts with nothing but pride for every decision we ever made.

 

[Reginald Trent]

Quote:

while on the surface it seems easy to write this off as just a child being a child, he did in fact break a law even though the law probably wasn't written with this type of offense in mind. and as we all know, ignorance of the law is not an excuse.
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IMO this is more of a reflection on the prosecutor's lack of reasoned judgment than the crime that was committed. She can apply laws at her discretion. BTW Because she is a prosecutor I don't think lawyer would come to mind for most people. No more than it would when referring to a judge and yes they are lawyers too.

BTW I'm sure most 11 year olds know the law backward, forward and sideways.

 

[Kevin T]

BTW I'm sure most 11 year olds know the law backward, forward and sideways.

if you're gonna quote me, at least read that last fragment you quoted.

kevin t

 

[Reginald Trent]

Kevin,

The point is not whether or not the child will recieve the full punishment of that law. But rather whether the prosecutor should have applied that law in this instance. I think most reasonable people would say no, what the prosecutor did was overkill, pileing on, grandstanding etc,etc.

 

[Kevin T]

reginald....i agree with you to a certain extent. in my original post i alluded to the fact that the law being applied in the case was most likely not even written with this type of "crime" in mind. i don't recall the article stating anything about the child specifically but he may have a long juvenile record for all we know. more than likely he doesn't and more than likely very little will actually happen to him. all i'm trying to say is that he knowingly and willingly broke school policy and the law. he should be made accountable for his actions so in the future he thinks twice before he decides to break any other rules / laws. hopefully this will send a message to other students as well. do i think the prosecutor is being a bit extreme? yes, but it's also her job to enforce the law.

 

[Reginald Trent]

Quote:

all i'm trying to say is that he knowingly and willingly broke school policy and the law. he should be made accountable for his actions so in the future he thinks twice before he decides to break any other rules / laws. hopefully this will send a message to other students as well. do i think the prosecutor is being a bit extreme? yes, but it's also her job to enforce the law.
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We seem to be in agreement that the child should be punished. Where we disagree is the implementation of the punishment.
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Quote:

but it's also her job to enforce the law.
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Proper law enforcement requires exercising good discretion and wisdom when balancing the harm the crime has caused the community. IMO This prosecutor simply lack sound judgment, pure and simple. This reminds me of a case where a girl was expelled because she brought midol to school and the school has a no drug policy. Quite bizzare and insane.

Moreover, you sound as if laws are to be enforced to the letter of the law. Sorry, to disillusion you but it's not. That why mitigating circumstances can mean the difference between murder and manslaughter.

BTW Would you want the IRS trying to lock you up because you under reported your income by 1 cent?

I don't know about the rest of you but I expect people in positions of authority to excercise better judgment than what this prosecutor has exhibited.

 

[Yee-Ming]

seeing the furore that the article has generated, I looked at it again, all the prosecutor says is

Mancini said he could face several years in a juvenile detention facility, if convicted.

i.e. (1) she would be willing to prosecute in full, and (2) if she gets a conviction, he "could face several years...".

she didn't say that she was in fact pushing for such a sentence. as I noted in an earlier post, she of course wouldn't say right off the bat that, "yes, I'm prosecuting, but since he's a lickle-boy I'll ask the nice man in the black robe to give him a stern warning and have the probation officers visit once in a while." that detracts from the deterrent effect.

I would imagine that this will be plea-bargained, he pleads guilty in exchange for probation etc. she gets her deterrent effect, the boy gets a reasonably punishment bearing in mind his age.

it's the judge's decision as to what sentence to impose, the prosecutor merely makes her recommendation as to what to impose. so even if she was motivated by other reasons, the judge is the final arbiter anyway.

 

[Reginald Trent]

Frankly, I see this as the other side of the coin of a frivolous lawsuit. That with it being brought by the state instead of a private attorney.

 

[Todd K]

I would imagine that this will be plea-bargained, he pleads guilty in exchange for probation etc.

That's another aspect of the legal system that doesn't seem to make much sense -- how pleading one way or another can have an effect on the sentence. Also, people seem to change them a lot as well.

 

[Reginald Trent]

Also why give this 11 year old a police record for something that should be handled in a disciplinary action by the school? This hold thing is a collosal waste of money, manpower/resources, the judicial system and it stinks.

 

[Charlie B. Ch.]

hat's another aspect of the legal system that doesn't seem to make much sense -- how pleading one way or another can have an effect on the sentence.

Think of a trial as a football game. You don't really know what is going to happen tomorrow. Prosecutor often negotiates plea to reduce that uncertainty. Moreover, judicial resources are currently at full stretch. Judges calendar normally are often booked months in advance and DA offices are typically way overworked. Plea negotiating is seen as an efficient way to deal with the problems in our system.

 

[Reginald Trent]

Good point Charlie, however, my point is this does not belong in the judicial system at all. Even if only to get a plea bargain agreement. As you clearly stated and I mentioned earlier, the judical system is already stretched with serious cases. Why should a official/prosecutor further complicate things by introducing a non threating case like this into to it?

I would equate this prosecutor to a policeman writing/issuing speeding tickets to drivers going one MPH over the speed limit. Sure, the policeman has every right to issue the speeding tickets, but is it a prudent use of manpower, resources and the judicial system?

 

[Brian Perry]

I would equate this prosecutor to a policeman writing/issuing speeding tickets to drivers going one MPH over the speed limit. Sure, the policeman has every right to issue the speeding tickets, but is it a prudent use of manpower, resources and the judicial system?

Reginald,

That's where deterrence comes in. By forcefully prosecuting (or threatening to prosecute) one case, it has the effect of preventing dozens or hundreds of people from thinking about doing the same behavior. So while it seems to be a waste of resources, it may actually save money in the long run.

(By the way, I agree with Yee--this kid will not serve time.)

 

[Allen_Appel]

Who will this case actually end up deterring from doing the same? All the 11-year-olds who watch MSNBC and read the Wall Street Journal? Maybe it will stop kids in that same school from cheating-by-computer, but it will have zero effect on kids at large.