UHD Review A Few Words About A few words about...™ - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance -- in 4k UHD (1 Viewer)

[Chewbabka]

This GIF looks more filmic than the TMWSLV 4KUHD disc.

 

[Stephen_J_H]

"It's got a good beat and you can dance to it."

(One may need to be a certain age to get the reference: This was often the stock response on the old American Bandstand TV show when Dick Clark would ask the audience their thoughts about a new song.)

As an aside, I'd love to know how often anyone actually said that phrase or a close variant.

Could be a cliche that wasn't really used that much!

Last time I remember a form of this phrase being used was The Powerpuff Girls.

 

[Colin Jacobson]

Last time I remember a form of this phrase being used was The Powerpuff Girls.

Not asking how often it's been said as a callback to "Bandstand" or other shows like that.

Asking how often it was said on those shows in the first place.

It long ago became a cliche and has been uttered many times in that ironic/mocking capacity...

 

[compson]

This nitpicker complains about “goupy unresolved fake film grain.” And he notes the UHD’s economy in using half the Blu-ray’s bitrate in spots.

4k Movie, Streaming, Blu-Ray Disc, and Home Theater Product Reviews & News | High Def Digest

 

[Robert Crawford]

This nitpicker complains about “goupy unresolved fake film grain.” And he notes the UHD’s economy in using half the Blu-ray’s bitrate in spots.

4k Movie, Streaming, Blu-Ray Disc, and Home Theater Product Reviews & News | High Def Digest

There isn't much doubt that reviewer has been reading RAH's comments about the disc.

 

[Michel_Hafner]

Blu-ray Forum - View Single Post - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance 4K UHD (1962)

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[Robert Crawford]

Blu-ray Forum - View Single Post - The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance 4K UHD (1962)

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I don't think this disc is going to be as divisive as he thinks among "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" disc purchasers because those that are bothered by the issues brought up by RAH will refuse to buy it since it's being talked about a great deal across the various sites so people know about its issues. Most of the people that do buy this 4K disc will either not be bothered by those issues and consider them minor in their disc enjoyment or those issues will not surface enough for them to notice them at all. I see Amazon has dropped their pricing down to $29.99 which is still higher than my desirable price point so I'll continue to wait before purchasing it.

 

[Robert Harris]

I don't think this disc is going to be as divisive as he thinks among "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" disc purchasers because those that are bothered by the issues brought up by RAH will refuse to buy it since it's being talked about a great deal across the various sites so people know about its issues. Most of the people that do buy this 4K disc will either not be bothered by those issues and consider them minor in their disc enjoyment or those issues will not surface enough for them to notice them at all. I see Amazon has dropped their pricing down to $29.99 which is still higher than my desirable price point so I'll continue to wait before purchasing it.

Robert,

Earlier, someone linked me to Geoff D’s post, and I left him the following personal message:

“Geoff,

I was linked to your comments, which I enjoyed, and found extremely well-reasoned.

The singular problem that I’m seeing in various comments (here, as well as other sites) is viewers attempting to compare the new 4k to the old “smeary” Blu-ray, as opposed to a sharp, beautifully rendered original 35mm print.

Those prints, as is the negative from which they were struck, which remains the prime asset element, offers everything positive that you mention - rich blacks, a wide gray scale with plenty of shadow detail, a highly resolved image - via which fabric patterns and details rise - as well as a very fine-grained emulsion, which would actually be less noticeable than the digital noise replacement that oddly and in an unbalanced and applied fashion covers Paramount’s new 4k.

All of that with none of the negative attributes that you mention.

And all of which is absolutely attainable in a new quality scan that would be unfettered by Paramount’s obsessive tinkering with digital tools.

The simpler mechanism would provide a version of that superior image without any of the negative attributes of which you make note.

Hence my distaste for this release.

I no longer post to this site, but if you wish, feel free to paste my words in one of your own offerings.

I can fully understand why those here find you an asset.

With best regards,

RAH”

 

[Robert Harris]

The Cliffs Notes version of what I just posted above…

A PERFECT 4k UHD disc of Valance is extremely easily produced, with absolutely none of the negatives found in Paramount’s new release.

The simple facts are these:

There is no need for divisive discussions.

It matters not if you, or anyone else here (or elsewhere) can see the problems in Paramount’s release.

What matters is that had this release been properly prepared - in a simpler, and more budget-friendly fashion - everyone would applaud it, whether they can see the differences or not - as it would (and could have) replicated the look of an original 35mm print.

With all due respect to those who might feel that this release is fine or acceptable, understand that you’re viewing garbage - and would (I guarantee) find a proper release either more pleasing or just as numbing as this.

Bottom line…

It would be easier to create something of far higher quality, containing absolutely no negative attributes, than to create this bastardized version of an important film.

Paramount needs to re-think the manner in which they handle their library.

 

[OliverK]

Very well said, it is a missed opportunity. Unfortunately one still has to purchase the UHD to get the new Blu-ray that it is missing almost nothing with regard to detail compared to the UHD and from what I can see the best current home video version.

As for the grain to me the caps look like initially somebody overdid the sharpening at some point of the mastering stage resulting in an amplification of the original grain structure. Hard to say what happened then but it does not look pretty even in the caps and I know from the previous Blu-ray that it looked worse than the caps indicated so I assume it is the same here.

This brings me to a general problem with not only Paramount releases that I also see with other titles. People will probably not like it but as a general rule I would propose to sharpen less and live with a bit of softness in the original cinematography.
For many of these older movies shot in 35mm it is futile anyway to chase the detail that we see in modern digital productions, it just isn't there. Those less sharpened releases will look a lot more natural to people who appreciate these things and for those who don't there are a lot of sharpening tools available in their displays and most of the time also in other parts of the signal chain.

 

[Robert Harris]

I don't think this disc is going to be as divisive as he thinks among "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance" disc purchasers because those that are bothered by the issues brought up by RAH will refuse to buy it since it's being talked about a great deal across the various sites so people know about its issues. Most of the people that do buy this 4K disc will either not be bothered by those issues and consider them minor in their disc enjoyment or those issues will not surface enough for them to notice them at all. I see Amazon has dropped their pricing down to $29.99 which is still higher than my desirable price point so I'll continue to wait before purchasing it.

Robert,

Earlier, someone linked me to

Very well said, it is a missed opportunity. Unfortunately one still has to purchase the UHD to get the new Blu-ray that it is missing almost nothing with regard to detail compared to the UHD and from what I can see the best current home video version.

As for the grain to me the caps look like initially somebody overdid the sharpening at some point of the mastering stage resulting in an amplification of the original grain structure. Hard to say what happened then but it does not look pretty even in the caps and I know from the previous Blu-ray that it looked worse than the caps indicated so I assume it is the same here.

This brings me to a general problem with not only Paramount releases that I also see with other titles. People will probably not like it but as a general rule I would propose to sharpen less and live with a bit of softness in the original cinematography.
For many of these older movies shot in 35mm it is futile anyway to chase the detail that we see in modern digital productions, it just isn't there. Those less sharpened releases will look a lot more natural to people who appreciate these things and for those who don't there are a lot of sharpening tools available in their displays and most of the time also in other parts of the signal chain.

Not sure that I’m seeing sharpening here, as I’m not seeing grain.

Sharpening can be a wonderful tool when used correctly.

As an example, it was used to blend shots in MFL, matching those derived from b/w masters to surrounding OCN - Audrey Hepburn coming down Higgins stairs in her ball gown.

As I recall the sharpening was .07.

 

[HDMS Carl Mulder]

I thought it was worth a shot, I sent this to Paramount

 

[FordPeckinpahLeone]

Glenn Erickson reviews this edition for Trailers from Hell.

If nobody posted this here, here is Glenn Erickson's positive review of the 4K UHD edition. Glenn probably doesn't know what he is missing with this release, which is not what a proper one could be (I have the old Blu-ray).

 

[tenia]

I just watch what I wanna watch. I sometimes review movies I don't especially desire to view because of their status, but usually I just choose what I write about based on what I feel like watching!

I do too, don't worry !
But when you'd like to watch 45 movies a month and only have time to watch 25 anyway, you can prioritise those 25 over the other 20, and still only watch what you want to watch (which is what I do in the end).

I thought it was worth a shot, I sent this to Paramount

You're talking specifically (and only) about encodes and bitrates, but if the issue also (at least in part) stems from the restoration stage (which seems very likely here, and is a certainty on some Paramount titles), there's nothing the encode can do about it (except avoiding to make it worse). While it's possible that Liberty Valance's UHD is hampered by an insufficiently good encode, the overall issue with some Paramount's titles are not down to the encode, but from issues upstream, straight at the restoration's stage (eg : Grease or To Catch A Thief). In these cases, what you're suggesting won't solve anything, but will also miss the technical steps that need to be re-assessed at Paramount and wherever they're doing their works.

 

[JoshZ]

This nitpicker complains about “goupy unresolved fake film grain.” And he notes the UHD’s economy in using half the Blu-ray’s bitrate in spots.

It's fairly pointless to compare bit rates between Blu-ray and UHD when the two formats use completely different compression codecs.

 

[Josh Steinberg]

You're talking specifically (and only) about encodes and bitrates, but if the issue also (at least in part) stems from the restoration stage (which seems very likely here, and is a certainty on some Paramount titles), there's nothing the encode can do about it (except avoiding to make it worse).

Absolutely. If this was simply a matter of poor disc authoring, none of these changes to the source material would be visible on the streaming versions, but they are. This is happening during the mastering phase and isn’t an accidental byproduct of disc authoring.

This is the intentional result of Paramount desiring to give their catalog titles a specific new look. This isn’t an accident or a wrong setting that no one has picked up on. This is a choice.

 

[sbjork]

Glenn Erickson reviews this edition for Trailers from Hell.

If nobody posted this here, here is Glenn Erickson's positive review of the 4K UHD edition. Glenn probably doesn't know what he is missing with this release, which is not what a proper one could be (I have the old Blu-ray).

Glenn's not an A/V guy, and he doesn't need to be. He's not the one to read if you're looking for accurate assessment of audio and video quality on a disc. You read Glenn when you want a wealth of historical information on the production, distribution, promotion, and other fascinating minutiae regarding movies. And sometimes some cool personal stories as well. He's an absolute champ when it comes to that kind of thing.

 

[OliverK]

Glenn's not an A/V guy, and he doesn't need to be. He's not the one to read if you're looking for accurate assessment of audio and video quality on a disc. You read Glenn when you want a wealth of historical information on the production, distribution, promotion, and other fascinating minutiae regarding movies. And sometimes some cool personal stories as well. He's an absolute champ when it comes to that kind of thing.

I am reading Glenn when I want to know something about the movie, not for his assessment of picture quality. He is a very good and unique writer.

 

[OliverK]

Robert,

Earlier, someone linked me to

Not sure that I’m seeing sharpening here, as I’m not seeing grain.

Sharpening can be a wonderful tool when used correctly.

As an example, it was used to blend shots in MFL, matching those derived from b/w masters to surrounding OCN - Audrey Hepburn coming down Higgins stairs in her ball gown.

As I recall the sharpening was .07.

That sharpening in My Fair Lady works very well indeed and I am certainly not advocating to do away with all sharpening. Like salt however it is a very tricky thing - once you add too much one cannot take it away as easily as it is to add a bit more later.

I will go with another try at what seems to be an issue at Paramount without going into specific processes as the end results vary:

To me it seems like Paramount is still trying out and learning new digital tools but with varying amounts of success.
Instead of doing as little as possible they are finding very different ways of messing with what I assume they have as a still intact digital base that they are working from and out come releases that have all kinds of different issues. If one looks at Grease, Forrest Gump, The Godfather, To Catch A Thief, El Dorado and now The Man who Shot Liberty Valance there is not really a unifying theme but a feeling of things going wrong in different ways.

I feel there is a trend from completely overdoing grain reduction in earlier releases with both old and new scans like El Dorado, Grease and also To Catch a Thief to now trying to do something "smarter" with the latest examples being Liberty Valance and The Godfather. Both approaches result in inferior product and I would suggest to Paramount to look for outside help and to start from scratch or to work from their existing better releases like The Court Jester and The Ten Commandments.

 

[Robert Harris]

That sharpening in My Fair Lady works very well indeed and I am certainly not advocating to do away with all sharpening. Like salt however it is a very tricky thing - once you add too much one cannot take it away as easily as it is to add a bit more later.

I will go with another try at what seems to be an issue at Paramount without going into specific processes as the end results vary:

To me it seems like Paramount is still trying out and learning new digital tools but with varying amounts of success.
Instead of doing as little as possible they are finding very different ways of messing with what I assume they have as a still intact digital base that they are working from and out come releases that have all kinds of different issues. If one looks at Grease, Forrest Gump, The Godfather, To Catch A Thief, El Dorado and now The Man who Shot Liberty Valance there is not really a unifying theme but a feeling of things going wrong in different ways.

I feel there is a trend from completely overdoing grain reduction in earlier releases with both old and new scans like El Dorado, Grease and also To Catch a Thief to now trying to do something "smarter" with the latest examples being Liberty Valance and The Godfather. Both approaches result in inferior product and I would suggest to Paramount to look for outside help and to start from scratch or to work from their existing better releases like The Court Jester and The Ten Commandments.

The overriding problem seems to be that someone feels that they MUST do something to change the original image, as opposed to having it looks like film. That is what all quality restorations hope to attain - the perfect appearance of film.

Every restoration begins with a base scan - the selection of scanner, the individual operating the scanner, the scanner set-up, and any tools used as the data exits the scanner.

Even at that early point, something can go in as film, and come out as pasta.

There is also the dark side - that certain folks on Melrose believe they do superlative work, and like what they see. It will fall to those who take their place to mop up after them.