A Few Words About A few words about...™ Vertigo -- in Blu-ray (1 Viewer)

[AstonMartin007]

Sometimes, bluray criticisms are a bit nitpicky. I read stuff like "digital-looking" or other such terms, and think it's overblown exaggeration. (Though to be fair, I'm not projecting them on huge screens).

Not with Vertigo though, the Bluray could be picked apart by a blind bat. Comparison shots aren't even necessary to show how wrong it is at times.

For example: The background for this should be pitch black. How the hell did it turn out like this?!?

That one shot basically negates any aspirations of accuracy for the entire film.

I also hate the colored Universal intro and the war drums that are completely antithetical to the visuals and Herrmann's score. I've no problem with Universal putting their logo on it, but would it kill them to make it B&W and silent? Warners changes their logo all the time, Paramount had no problem doing so in 1958!!!

This whole fiasco is amateur hour on a grand scale, like drunkenly playing the kazoo at Carnegie Hall.

 

[Moe Dickstein]

I'll have you know my drunken Kazoo concert at Carnegie was very warmly recieved.

 

[AstonMartin007]

They heated up the tomatoes beforehand, eh?

It turns out the kazoo actually has been used at Carnegie. I probably should've chosen a different instrument, like the vuvuzela. I'm not sure the vuvuzela sounds any better drunk or sober though...

 

[Jari K]

I believe Mr. Harris explained in this thread that the original mono elements were junked and the "older" audio restoration was based on the stereo elements (studio then added some new foley effetcs etc).

How about the new Blu-ray version (which is using the "new" restorarion)? Did they create a new audio mix(es)? DTS 2.0 track is listed as "mono", but I guess it can't be the original mono if the elements are gone?

 

[moovtune]

The original mono elements are not lost - the original mix is what's on the 2.0 track. There is also a new mix on the Blu-ray, created from the original mono stems except for adding stereo music.

 

[Robert Harris]

The original mono elements are not lost - the original mix is what's on the 2.0 track. There is also a new mix on the Blu-ray, created from the original mono stems except for adding stereo music.

Truly? Please advise as to location.

RAH

 

[Jari K]

Mr. Harris was quite clear in this thread (or was it some other thread of Vertigo?) that the original mono elements are gone.Could you clear this issue (once again) RAH? And if I could ask: How they created the "new" 2.0 mix for the new Blu-ray if those mono elements are indeed gone?

 

[Worth]

The master may be gone, but it's still possible to use a mono track off a surviving print, or even the original laserdisc release.

 

[Robert Harris]

Far too tired to get into this again. Sorry. If all else fails, the track from a VHS will do fine. If unavailable, go to Youtube.

I believe in Gertrude Steins' words.

RAH

 

[AstonMartin007]

I used to wonder if the masters for the old Mercury LP could stand in as a source, but I'm sure you considered that. It must've been very irritating working on such a high-level project with such limited sources. Who's the idiot who told Hitchcock how to store film elements? (Also...was NxNW one of those? That film always looked and sounded good to me, did MGM hold on to it?)If anyone wants to hear the absolute best quality Vertigo score recording, you'll have to move to the '60s, but you get Herrmann in the trade. Not many people are aware of this but Herrmann actually re-recorded some of his scores in the '60s and '70s with the London Philharmonic Orchestra in beautiful stereo sound; He arranged the Prelude/Nightmare/Scene d'Amour into a suite. He used a recording process called Phase 4 which had multiple microphones accenting different instruments, so some of the earlier releases had wonky mixing, but they've all finally been properly remastered and released under the Decca Eloquence label:http://www.amazon.com/Cinema-Spectacular-Bernard-Herrmann/dp/B004B3PF84/http://www.amazon.com/Hermann-Film-Classics-Bernard-Herrmann/dp/B004B3PF5W

The next best one is the only complete recording of the score, more obscure and unfortunately very rare: James Conlon with the Paris Opera Orchestra in 1999. It was released as a supplement to some limited edition art book, and has been out of print for years. I found a lower quality rip, but could never find the CD for less than some outrageous sum. It's very authentic-sounding, using the right tempos and conducted very well.

I know this goes way beyond restoration, but I do wonder whether it might be possible to substitute Herrmann's or Conlon's recordings for Mathieson's in the soundtrack. I think Mathieson did an excellent job under the circumstances, but Herrmann didn't approve. And I think a well-recorded substitution would add rather than subtract from the film...after all, I think everyone's happy that the restored Metropolis doesn't sound as grainy as the picture looks at times.

I've also been wondering whether Bass' title sequence could be recreated digitally...it's mostly graphic art and letters anyway. But those Lissajous spirals have me pretty stumped...haven't come across any way of recalculating them, the closest I've found is this guy who came up with a pretty good approximation of the poster:

http://lapin-bleu.net/riviera/?p=64

 

[Robert Harris]

I used to wonder if the masters for the old Mercury LP could stand in as a source, but I'm sure you considered that. It must've been very irritating working on such a high-level project with such limited sources. Who's the idiot who told Hitchcock how to store film elements? (Also...was NxNW one of those? That film always looked and sounded good to me, did MGM hold on to it?)If anyone wants to hear the absolute best quality Vertigo score recording, you'll have to move to the '60s, but you get Herrmann in the trade. Not many people are aware of this but Herrmann actually re-recorded some of his scores in the '60s and '70s with the London Philharmonic Orchestra in beautiful stereo sound; He arranged the Prelude/Nightmare/Scene d'Amour into a suite. He used a recording process called Phase 4 which had multiple microphones accenting different instruments, so some of the earlier releases had wonky mixing, but they've all finally been properly remastered and released under the Decca Eloquence label:http://www.amazon.com/Cinema-Spectacular-Bernard-Herrmann/dp/B004B3PF84/http://www.amazon.com/Hermann-Film-Classics-Bernard-Herrmann/dp/B004B3PF5W The next best one is the only complete recording of the score, more obscure and unfortunately very rare: James Conlon with the Paris Opera Orchestra in 1999. It was released as a supplement to some limited edition art book, and has been out of print for years. I found a lower quality rip, but could never find the CD for less than some outrageous sum. It's very authentic-sounding, using the right tempos and conducted very well. I know this goes way beyond restoration, but I do wonder whether it might be possible to substitute Herrmann's or Conlon's recordings for Mathieson's in the soundtrack. I think Mathieson did an excellent job under the circumstances, but Herrmann didn't approve. And I think a well-recorded substitution would add rather than subtract from the film...after all, I think everyone's happy that the restored Metropolis doesn't sound as grainy as the picture looks at times. I've also been wondering whether Bass' title sequence could be recreated digitally...it's mostly graphic art and letters anyway. But those Lissajous spirals have me pretty stumped...haven't come across any way of recalculating them, the closest I've found is this guy who came up with a pretty good approximation of the poster: http://lapin-bleu.net/riviera/?p=64

There are no problems with either the score or main titles.RAH

 

[Yorkshire]

Disappointing.RAH

I've sat on this question for a few days now. Could you please clarify?

Your initial assessment was that '90%' of the the disc looks 'superb', with the problem being the dupes, and that anyone getting caught up in the film wouldn't notice the problems, or realise they were problems.

Is that still the case, and you've just become more disappointed with the problems you initially saw?

Or do you think more people will notice them than you initially thought?

Or do you think the more than 10% is problematic?

Or that the better 90% is not 'superb'?

Cheers.

Steve W

 

[Jari K]

Far too tired to get into this again.

I fully understand that, knowing your history with the film and these "original mono" discussions.

But at the end of the day I'm still a bit confused. What elements the new Blu-ray (and restoration) used when it comes to audio? If RAH can't really comment (since he wasn't involved with the new restoration) then who can?

Did they re-create/restore the "original Mono" from the original mono elements? Answer seems to be "no" (I tend to believe RAH on this one).

Did they took the mono track from a surviving print or even the original laserdisc release (and cleaned it up etc)? I have no idea.

 

[Yorkshire]

I wonder, and this is pure speculation.

It appears from the 'new' (now old - original restoration) surround mix that the creators had access to the original dialogue, stereo music, but no original foley.

Could they not have extracted the foley from the original (but poor) mono soundtrack (using the same process as used for the new surround mix for Psycho) and cleaned that up, then created a new mono downmix using that recovered foley, and the dialogue & stereo music tracks used for the original restoration of Vertigo ?

That would seem to me to be the best way to (only way?) to do it. It would contain all original elements, with all but the foley being excellent quality.

Steve W

 

[Burns581]

Read the thread "A few words about... the image and audio restoration of Vertigo and DVD" from Oct. 8, 2005.

Dialogue and sound effects were plucked from vintage release prints' optical tracks. There was no other usable source. New effects were also employed. They were then all mixed with the stereo music recordings. Both the 1996 restoration and the Blu-Ray used this basic method, with unique final results.

In sections of the restoration and Blu-Ray with dialogue and music at the same time, the mono music from the optical release tracks is still under the dialogue, with the newly found original music recordings spread around it.

A question for Mr. Harris: Do you know how much the fading of the original elements is slowed by the controlled temperature and humidity that Universal stores them at? I gather from your comments that while the digital magic we now have can work wonders, at some point, even with cold storage, it won't be possible to make it perfect again.

Unfortunately, I imagine that key members of the Hitchcock estate may not read this board...

 

[Robert Harris]

Read the thread "A few words about... the image and audio restoration of Vertigo and DVD" from Oct. 8, 2005.

Dialogue and sound effects were plucked from vintage release prints' optical tracks. There was no other usable source. New effects were also employed. They were then all mixed with the stereo music recordings. Both the 1996 restoration and the Blu-Ray used this basic method, with unique final results.

In sections of the restoration and Blu-Ray with dialogue and music at the same time, the mono music from the optical release tracks is still under the dialogue, with the newly found original music recordings spread around it.

A question for Mr. Harris: Do you know how much the fading of the original elements is slowed by the controlled temperature and humidity that Universal stores them at? I gather from your comments that while the digital magic we now have can work wonders, at some point, even with cold storage, it won't be possible to make it perfect again.

Unfortunately, I imagine that key members of the Hitchcock estate may not read this board...

Universal has a superb vault system. At this time, the film can still be saved. Not certain what "at some point" means, but "at some point," no.

RAH

 

[Kylan1]

This whole thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth and fishy to say the least. But hey what do I know.. It looks beautiful to me. The only problems I see are the flashback intro and the scenes in the tower at the end.

 

[Moe Dickstein]

This whole thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth and fishy to say the least. But hey what do I know.. It looks beautiful to me. The only problems I see are the flashback intro and the scenes in the tower at the end.

Glad to have your expert opinion

 

[Jari K]

"This whole thread leaves a bad taste in my mouth.."Because some people are interested about the audio?

 

[Kylan1]

At the risk of a public stoning. I find it puzzling why one would give this disc a generally positive review and then months down the roadanddo a 180 and make it out to be a disaster. You watch the restoration doc and they go on and on about the work they did and how it's protected and preserved for generations to come....blah blah blah and here we are talking about it 17 yrs later if there is still time to save the film and make it right. But hey I'm just an average joe so stone me for being on the outside looking in but frankly it's a bit confusing to understand.